F$&% CR, There’s a Better Way (Part 2)

Print Friendly, PDF & Email

October 28, 2019

The other day, I promised to share the amazing new system that I had been testing and tweaking off and on for a while and had been using to build encounters and monsters for my Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition. And then I didn’t actually give you the system. Instead, I spent 5,000 words pissing and moaning about the way I’d have built the system better if someone had asked me. Because I’m an a$&hole. But at least I didn’t make you wait too long until the payoff. In fact, I feel so bad for putting it off even a little bit that I’m going to skip the Long, Rambling Introduction™. That’s right, I’m launching right into the article.

Be Ye Warned

As I explained in the practically nonexistent Long, Rambling Introduction™, this article is going to show you the system I have been using to build custom monsters and encounters for my Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition game. But before I launch into the system itself, I need to post a couple of warnings about this system. I promise I’ll be brief.

First, this is a system for people who actually see the merit in building balanced encounters instead of flinging whatever s$&% they want at their party and then telling the players it’s their own damned fault if they get killed because they should have run away. I would have thought that would be obvious, but after having to moderate more than a few comments to that effect, it became apparent that you can never be too obvious for some people. Look, if you think encounter balance is useless, that’s great. Go do whatever the f$&% you want. You don’t need my permission to do it. Just go run the game you want to. Good for you. But no one wants to hear from you on an article clearly intended for people who want to adopt a modicum of modern game design practice and see the value in it. So shut the hell up and go run your game you absolute mouth-breathing moronic turd with a keyboard.

With that out of my system…

Second, this system has a problem. See, it’s a very elegant and easy to use system that would make everyone’s life a lot easier if it was actually the system in the motherf$&%ing rules. But it isn’t. The system in the rules is utter s$&% and it’s based on stupid assumptions about statistical treadmills, precision balance, and that the only difference between one monster and many monsters can be summed up with an XP multiplier. Now, that s$&% all drives me crazy. I can feel it every time I build an encounter and I’m f$&%ing sick and tired of it. But I realize I’m crazy.

Anyway, the problem is that the monsters in the Monster Manual just don’t work with my system. Because they were made the stupid, official way. So, if you take a monster from the Monster Manual, you have to tweak its stats a little to make it work. Now, I find that pretty easy. I just cross out its AC, HP, Att/Save DC, and DMG and write in new ones. Because that’s about all you have to tweak to make them useable my way. But I understand that’s not for everyone. And, to be quite honest, these days, I stat up my own monsters. I just make custom monsters exclusively these days. Which isn’t nearly as much work as it seems. Most of them are actually just custom versions of the monsters that already exist.

But that’s the warning. If you really want to embrace this system, you’re going to need to start building a library of custom monsters. And I wonder if it wouldn’t be worth inviting people to contribute their own monsters and compiling them together somewhere and gradually building a bestiary of Angry monsters. Hell, if I had the money, I’d hire the trusted members of my inner circle and start throwing together an Angry bestiary.

Third and finally, there’s at least a 50% chance that in six months, this whole system is going to end up obsolete. See, there is one problem left in the combat engine that this system doesn’t address and that it really needs to. And I am already working on the fix for that. And if I do eventually find a group of victims to test THAT fix and I do get it tweaked and working well, I’m going to come up with Angry’s Custom Monster and Encounter Building System Version 2. Or whatever. I don’t know what version number will actually get released. After all, this that you’re reading right now is Version 1.67 or something because I’ve been testing and iterating it across several one-shots, campaigns, and tests – in some cases without even telling the players – to get the numbers where I want them.

And by the way, that’s something else for you commenters to keep in mind. If you have a comment that sounds like “this looks neat, but I have no idea how it will play…” the answer is “pretty well, thank you.” Because, once again, I actually DO playtest my material before I share it. And if I share something I haven’t playtested, I f$&%ing admit it.

Anyway, on to the show…

The Best Way to Build an Encounter

Fortunately, except for a remark or two about specific comments I had to moderate, I got all of the b$&%ing out of my system. That last article devolved into me describing everything I hated about encounter building in the previous article. So, let me just jump ahead to what encounter building SHOULD look like. How do I want to build an encounter?

The best encounters are encounters in which a group of heroes confronts a group of foes in roughly equal numbers. That’s the baseline. And if I weren’t stopping myself from complaining, I’d complain about the fact that the D&D designers apparently drank a little too much bleach between 4E and 5E and forgot that essential point. And the best encounters are encounters where the heroes and monsters are roughly equally matched in terms of power. Mostly.

After all, the statistical treadmill thing sucks. Sometimes, players need to feel disadvantaged. Sometimes, they need to feel advantaged. And those feelings need to tie directly into the advancement system. I already talked about that last time in my 5,000 b$&%-fest. I’m not going to repeat it.

Now, ideally, that would be built right into the system. It isn’t something you want to leave up the GM. Like, it’d be great if the designers had set the statistics so the players would alternate between hard levels, Goldilocks levels, and easy levels. XP levels I mean. That is to say, it would have been great if they said “okay, level 3 should feel challenging and level 4 should feel just right and level 5 should feel easy and so on…” and built that right into the stats. That way, GMs don’t need to account for it. The system just provides that wobbling sort of challenge where the players’ power levels are sometimes ahead of the monster power curve and sometimes behind it.

So all I’d have to do as a GM is look at my players’ XP level and build an encounter to that and the game’s challenge curve would hit that wobble instead of a linear treadmill.

To build the most basic encounter then, I’d just have to pick out one monster for each PC whose level matched the party’s average level. Four first-level PCs against four goblins. Four third level PCs against three orcs and their pet warg. Whatever.

That’d be great. Except for the problem that it’d be limited, it’d be boring, and it’d require a HUGE bestiary. It’d be limited because every monster could only be used at one specific level. It’d be boring because every fight would consist of one monster per PC. And it’d require a huge bestiary because you’d need a big roster of monsters at every level to provide plenty of options for encounter building fun.

Now, there is an easy way to counteract the boring part. Include ways to build encounters with more or fewer monsters. All you have to do is recognize the fact that different monsters are built differently and account for that. 4E kind of did this too with the solos, elites, and minions. But it was kind of messy. And 4E suffered from a massive precision problem.

But we can counteract the precision problem and the problem of limited monster utility and the problem of the huge bestiary and also account for the wobbling challenging very easily. We just have to say “look, the difference between a CR 3 monster and a CR 4 and a CR 5 monster is pretty small all things considered and, besides, we want to present players with monsters that are hard at some levels and easier at others.” In other words, we give each monster a level range at which it’s a good challenge. If the players are at the low end of that range, the encounter will be harder. If they are at the high end of that range, it’ll be easier.

And that brings us around to the ideal way of building monsters: every monster has a range of levels at which that monster should be used to build challenges and every monster has a certain group size. That is, every monster tends to appear with a certain number of friends. So, to make an encounter with a specific monster, all you have to do is make sure they fall in the right level range and make sure you give them the right number of friends. THAT is my dream system for building D&D encounters. And THAT’S what my system ultimately does. Now, let’s look at the nitty-gritty.

Challenge Wobble and Tiers of Play

First, let’s tackle the problem of wobbling challenge and the power levels of various monsters. Because this is a problem I’ve already solved in previous articles. Years ago, in fact. And it is the first idea in this whole system I started testing. Years ago. I started building encounters by tier of play rather than by level.

D&D has 20 levels of gameplay, right? And while 20th level characters and 20th level monsters are much, MUCH more powerful than 1st level characters and 1st level monsters, the difference between one level and the next is reasonably gradual. You can safely through a CR 12 monster against an AVERAGE 11th level party. And if it’s the only encounter of the day and the characters can spend all of their resources, a SKILLED 9th level party can usually take on a CR 12 monster.

The point is, instead of being precise about monster levels, you COULD just say that a CR 12 monster is just fine for anything from 10th level to 12th level. And if all the monsters in your Monster Manual were built to specific level ranges, you could say “okay, level 11 is a hard level because the players are actually fighting CR 12 monsters and level 13 is easier because the players are actually fighting CR 12 monsters.”

Now, that said, there are places where the power level of the game does jump a little bit. There are actually four places where the PC’s power level changes substantially. The first three occur at 5th, 11th, and 17th levels. Those are the levels at which all spellcasters get an extra die of damage for their cantrips and also those are ROUGHLY levels at which the damage output of non-spellcasters also jumps due to their class abilities. Those are the levels at which the monk’s martial arts attacks increase in damage, for example. And those are the levels at which the fighter gets extra attacks or additional action surge uses. Roguish sneak attack increases more frequently, but there are increases keyed to those three levels and the other increases occur evenly between them.

The fourth substantial change in the power level of PCs comes at 2nd level for some classes and 3rd level for other classes. Because at one of those two levels, every character class gets to make a big choice about their build. Paladins choose an oath, warlocks choose a pact, fighters choose a martial build, and so on. On top of that, 3rd level is about the point where the characters stop being so f$&%ing delicate that a stiff wind will force them to start making death saves.

So, we already have this idea that there are four tiers of play. The first one covers 1st and 2nd levels. It’s a starter tier. And lots of people even skip that tier. After that, though, there’s three tiers of six levels apiece. Now, six levels are a bit large for a tier of play. You wouldn’t put a 5th level party against an 11th level monster. But six is a nice number because we want this wobble between easy levels, medium levels, and hard levels, right? So, what if we split each of those three big tiers into two smaller tiers.

So, a tier of play consists of three levels, say 4th, 5th, and 6th level is the Adventurer tier. Monsters at that tier are built roughly to 5th level standards. 4th level parties will find Adventurer tier monsters challenging. But then they gain 5th level and the monsters feel like more of an even match. Then, they gain 6th level and they find themselves trouncing the monsters and feeling like a badass. And then they cross into the next tier and the 7th level heroes are finding the 8th level monsters a challenge again.

The big question then is how you align the tiers to those three big power jump levels. Obviously, 1st and 2nd levels have to be in their own tier. But after that, where do you want the power levels to fall in the tier structure. And here’s where I admit I was doing it wrong for a while before I did it right. Because I have been building encounters to this standard for YEARS.

Initially, I said to myself that the power jumps should coincide with switching to a new tier because that’s when the PCs end up in a new weight class. So, I had 1st level as its own tier. And did 2nd to 4th level as the next tier. 5th to 7th was next. Then 8th to 10th. And that’s wrong. Because I was ignoring what the players wanted. If you, as a player, suddenly see your damage output jump because your spells are more powerful and you can do extra attacks, what are you expecting to feel like at the next play session? You’re expecting to feel like a bada$&. You want to trash the monsters. You want to rip the game apart. You want to feel how much more powerful you’ve become.

So, 5th level, 11th level, and 17th level need to be the last level in their tier. They need to be easy levels. And that makes sense if you think about the ratcheting power level in terms of the players becoming overpowered and then the game rushing to catch up. When the players have a substantial jump in power, the game SHOULD get blindsided a bit and then race ahead of the players again. That’s precisely the wobble you want.

My games are now split into seven tiers of advancement. Apprentice (1st and 2nd level), Journeyman (3rd to 5th level), Adventurer (6th to 8th level), Veteran (9th to 11th level), Champion (12th to 14th level), Heroic (15th to 17th level), and Legendary (18th level and beyond). And, for a long time, I built all of my encounters as if the party was always at the middle level of their tier. At Journeyman Tier, I built all of my encounters as if I had a 4th level party regardless of the PC’s actual level. At Champion Tier, they always faced 13th level encounters. And man did that alone change the feel of the game immensely.

Angry’s Amazing Encounter and Monster Building System v0.5

If you’re not into tweaking monsters or building your own custom beasts, I’m going to advise you to at least do the tier thing. Divide your game into the seven tiers of advancement I listed: Apprentice (1st and 2nd level), Journeyman (3rd to 5th level), Adventurer (6th to 8th level), Veteran (9th to 11th level), Champion (12th to 14th level), Heroic (15th to 17th level), and Legendary (18th level and beyond). And then balance all of your encounters to the middle level of each tier.

But that wasn’t enough for me.

Encounter Slots and Monster Size

So, now we’re envisioning a Monster Manual in which every monster is built to a specific tier of play and each tier covers three levels of advancement. Great. That’s half the problem solved. But what about the other half. What about figuring out the appropriate number of beasts for a given party?

D&D has this pain-in-the-a$& system of figuring out the equivalent single monster CR for a group of some number of monsters of some lower CR based on totaling up the XP for all of the individual monsters, multiplying it by some kind of difficulty factor, and then comparing it to the XP of single monsters. And because of that, it requires these clumsy fractional CRs to account for monsters that are supposed to appear in large groups at low to middling levels of play. And there is no f$&%ing reason for any of that.

Now, I am going to skip a lot of my reasoning here because it’s pretty dull. It involves noticing a pattern in the Encounter Multipliers table on DMG 82 and also remembering how 4E handled things. I’m just going to skip ahead to the way I think things work best. The number of monsters should be ROUGHLY based on the number of PCs in the party. And the baseline assumption for an encounter should be that the number of monsters is ROUGHLY equal to the number of PCs. That’s where monsters like orcs and wolves fit in.

But some monsters tend to outnumber the PCs, right? Things like kobolds and goblins and cultists and thugs. They tend to outnumber the party by ROUGHLY two to one. Two monsters for every PC.

Then there’s monsters that swarm and overwhelm the party. They REALLY outnumber the party. Things like giant rats and monstrous spiders and zombies. Things that come in hordes. They appear in numbers of ROUGHLY three to one or four to one.

On the other end of the spectrum, you obviously have monsters that show up alone. The party has them outnumbered ROUGHLY four to one. Dragons, hydra, beholders, vampires, liches, all the big stuff. The setpiece encounters.

Finally, you also have monsters that tend to show up in slightly smaller numbers than the party. Most often, these are the sorts of creatures that show up with bodyguards or as bodyguards to other creatures. The witch and her ogre, the wizard and his golem, Ornstein and Smough, that kind of thing. They are usually outnumbered ROUGHLY two to one.

Do you see what’s happening here? There’s a sort of conversion factor between these monsters. So, if you classify each monster based on the size of the group they usually appear in, you can actually figure out the equivalences and replace some monsters with other monsters. That is to say, a monster that usually comes in Pairs can replace two monsters that usually come in a Group. And four monsters that usually show up in a Mob can replace one monster that usually comes in a Group.

Put another way, you assume every encounter has three to five “slots” for monsters. Normal monsters take up one slot. Bigger monsters take up two slots. Or four slots. Smaller monsters take up a half slot or a quarter slot. Beyond that, two monsters of the same tier of play and the same organizational size are interchangeable. Instead of building a fight with four orcs, I can build with two orcs and one ogre. Or three orcs and four goblin slaves.

And again, because we’re okay with being less precise, it doesn’t always have to be exact. It doesn’t have to be exact to the number of players: four heroes can fight three or four or five orcs. And it doesn’t have to be precise to the number of slots. Three wolves or four wolves or five wolves can replace one orc. Or whatever.

The idea of just slotting monsters into position in an encounter and using monsters of an appropriate tier makes it very easy to quickly build a variety of encounters. And if you then build some variety into the monsters, you can add even more variety. For example, if I am building a goblin a lair, I might have three different types of goblins: a skirmisher, a sharpshooter, and a leader. The leader goblin might even be the equivalent of two normal goblins. The goblins might also have an ogre slave. And they might have a bunch of giant rats they’ve trained. So, I could build encounters with three to five skirmishers and sharpshooters, I could replace two of them with the leader or the ogre, I could replace one of the goblins with four rats, I could make the leader a beastmaster and have him show up with eight rats, the leader and the ogre could pair off, and so on. It’s very easy to mix and match. And if I needed to build a random encounter, it’d be easy to slap one together.

Long story short: every monster has a Tier – a three-level smear across which it can be used to build encounters – and every monster has an Organization size – the number of friends it normally appears with. Every encounter has three to five slots for normal monsters. Paired monsters take up two slots. Solo monsters take up four slots. Gang monsters take up a half-slot each. Mob monsters take up a quarter-slot each.

Oh, by the way, my Organizations are Solos who show up alone, Pairs which show up with a friend, Groups which show up in equal numbers to the PCs, Gangs who outnumber the PCs two-to-one, and Mobs who outnumber the PCs four-to-one.

And man can I slap together encounters quickly using that system. Or I could if I had a f$&%ing Monster Manual arranged that way. Which brings me to…

Build-Your-Own-Beast

When you see the table at the end, you’ll be wishing you clicked on the goblin’s tip jar to leave me a tip. Trust me. Just go ahead and do it now.

Now, I’ve talked about this system vaguely to a couple of GMing friends and I’ve gotten some weird objections to it. The biggest one is “what if I want two dragons to show up” or “what if I want a dragon to show up with a group of kobolds?” That response confuses me because D&D already has that problem. That is to say, there are encounter balance rules and CRs and things and it can’t always do everything you want. I mean, in D&D as written, I can’t have my 1st level party fight a swarm of giant rats for f$&%’s sake. Three giant rats are already a DEADLY encounter according to the DMG.

This is precisely why custom monster building rules are provided as a supplement to encounter building rules. The beholder in the Monster Manual is meant for 13th level PCs. If I want to make it a good fight for my 18th level PCs or my 7th level PCs, I’m going to have to build my own beholder. And the same is true for my system.

Moreover, if I want to use my brilliant system, I need to find a way to quickly measure the stats of the monsters in the book to determine what Tier and Organization they actually are. And to tweak the stats if I want them to be different. Or to build my own monster if I don’t have the one I need for the thing I want to do.

Now, fortunately, D&D gives me all of the information I need to figure out precisely how to convert monsters from their system to my system. I just have to do a lot of math. And I did do the math. And I’m not going to spell it out. Because after I did all the math, I came up with a better way that was more versatile and faster anyway. And I’m going to share it with you.

See, there’s really only four numbers that determine the CR of a monster: HP, AC, average damage per round over three rounds, and attack/save DC bonus. And I already talked about why that is in the last part. I’m not going to go into it again. The thing to understand is that all of the other stats are just eye candy. It doesn’t really matter what the monster’s Strength modifier actually is or what it’s Proficiency bonus actually is if it puts out the right amount of damage with the right attack modifier. It’s good if these things DO align so that players can use that information to come up with plans. For example, if the players can determine that a monster’s AC is coming from its high Dexterity, they also know that spells that call for Dexterity saving throws are less likely to succeed. S$&% like that. But you can pick the HP, AC, dmg, and attack/save DC and then back into those numbers with the stats as close as you can and then handwave any minor differences that no one will notice.

So, what if you just had a big old table that said: “if you want to build a Group monster at Journeyman Tier, give it an AC of 14, 36 HP, +5 to attack, and attacks that output an average of 13 damage over three rounds.” And then you could open the Monster Manual and say, “lizardfolk put out 10 damage per round with an attack bonus of +4, they have 22 hit points, and they have an AC of 15; that puts them in Apprentice tier and they should come in Pairs or Groups.” Or even, “lizardfolk would make good Apprentice Tier Group monsters, but I need to cut their damage down. If I just drop the multiattack, they’d be perfect for that.”

But then, you also want to allow for some variation. After all, your monsters are being balanced for three levels of play anyway, so they have a lot of wiggle room. On top of that, it’s nice to be able to build variation into your monsters. Especially if you like to do what I do and build different monsters for different roles in the same group. Like, if you want to have lizardfolk who are tanky and lizardfolk who are DPSy and so on.

What if you provided a rating for each stat. Like, a Poor, Average, and Good AC for an Adventurer Tier monster or a Poor, Average, and Good Avg. Damage Per Round for a Heroic Tier Monster that comes in Mobs? So, you could build a monster by saying “I want to build a tanky Adventurer Tier monster. So, Good AC, Good HP, Average Attack, Poor Damage.” And then you could just take the numbers off the table, build around that, and be done.

On top of that, what if you could also account – ROUGHLY – for the effect of certain traits and special attacks. For example, Pack Tactics is the equivalent of a Good stat. So maybe I’d better scale down some other stat if I want to give this beastie Pack Tactics.

Could you do all of that with one table? Is it possible?

The One Table that Does All of That

Here it is (click on the table to see the full-sized image):

That’s the master custom monster building table that fits into the encounter building system that I have been building my monsters and encounters with. And I didn’t just make it with math. I started with math and added some logic. And then I evened off some of the numbers to make them work out neatly. And then I tweaked the hell out of it by using it a lot and playing out fights and using it in one-shot games and campaign games. I’ll admit it hasn’t been tested extensively at the highest levels of play. But from 1st to about 12th level, after about eighteen months of off-and-on tinkering, tweaking, and secret testing, I’m pretty happy with it.

Now, I will add a few words at the very end of this article about certain aspects of the math, but I know that isn’t everyone’s cup of tea. I’m just going to explain how to use it. And to use it properly, you do have to have SOME understanding of the custom monster building stuff in the Dungeon Master’s Guide which I have previously explained in this article.

Let’s say you want to build a monster. First, you’ve got a concept for the monster. And from that concept, you decide what Tier of play it fits into and how the monster generally Organizes itself into combat groups. Then, you decide the monster’s strengths and weaknesses based on its role. Monsters have five basic stats: AC, HP, Attack, Save DC, and Damage. But Attack and Save DC overlap. They fill the same spot in the math.

Anyway, decide whether each of those stats is Good, Average, or Poor. Consider each Good stat to be worth 1 point. Each Poor stat is worth -1 points. And an average stat is worth 0 points. When it comes to Attack Bonus and Save DC, consider only the better of the two. So, if a monster has a Good Save DC and a Poor Attack Bonus, that’s worth +1 point.

The number of points lets you know ROUGHLY how dangerous the monster is compared to other monsters of its level. This isn’t an exact science and it doesn’t play a direct role in encounter building. It’s a design tool. It lets you know when to back off or add a little more power. I call it Threat. Medium Threat monsters are best and they have -1 to +1 points. High Threat monsters have between +2 to +3 points. Low Threat monsters have between -3 to -2 points. +4 point monsters tend to be tricky for AVERAGE players. And -4 monsters tend to be pretty insubstantial for AVERAGE players. So I don’t usually push that far.

The table will tell you your target for each stat based on the Tier, Organization, and Quality. Just make those happen. As close as you can. HP and damage can be tricky because you’re trying to hit an average number based on a specific die roll. Just do your best. If you’re off a few points, so be it. Or compensate with other traits. For example, if you’re trying to make a Journeyman Tier Gang monster and you can’t hit the 8 points of average damage, 6 is the best you can do, maybe bring another stat up to Good to compensate for dropping the damage from Average to Poor. Or just leave it alone.

You also need to consider traits. DMG 280 to 281 gives this long list of monster features and how they impact the stats that are used to calculate the CR. And, frankly, I find that unnecessary. Obviously, if a feature just increases a monster’s damage output or something, you take that into account when you compute the average damage. For other traits, if it seems like it’s going to have an impact on the monster’s effective HP, AC, Attacks, Save DC, or Damage, just assume it’s worth +1 Threat and adjust accordingly. For example, goblins have nimble escape. They can freely disengage, move, or hide every round. That means they can stay out of harm’s way more easily and they’ll occasionally get advantage on attacks. Overall, that means they effectively have more HP and they have better attack rolls some of the time. That definitely provides them at least +1 Threat. And you could make a case that it’s a +2 Threat because it affects them both offensively and defensively. But then, it’s not an exact science.

If your monster has a lot of resistances or it can fly at low Tiers of play, cut the HP in half, just like the DMG instructs you to do. Thus, if you make a Journeyman wererat that shows up in Pairs – because they can almost hold their own, but you want to have some room to give them swarms of rat buddies – and give it resistance to Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing attacks from non-silver or non-magical weapons, give it 30 HP instead of the 60 HP it should have.

As for calculating average damage, follow the guidance in the DMG. If the damage varies, figure out how much damage it’d do over three rounds and then divide that by three. If there are area attacks, assume they hit two targets. If something does ongoing damage with a save, assume the target takes the ongoing damage once and then makes the save. If the creature is a melee creature with an aura of damage, assume two characters will take that damage every round. Honestly, that’s all just common sense s$&%.

Beyond all of that though, remember to build monsters to their Organization size. Group monsters need ways to work together. Solo monsters get no use out of synergies, but they need ways to stay dynamic, to hold their own, and to avoid getting stun-locked by staus afflictions at high levels. Mobs and Gangs are going to appear in large numbers. Don’t make them complicated. A single attack is good enough. And any traits they have should be passive and easy to account for. You don’t want your party rolling 16 different saving throws every round because your mobs do ongoing damage that a save can end.

And really, that’s it. These days, this is how I’m building custom content for my games. I build monsters to specific Tiers and Organizations and emphasize different roles with Good, Average, and Poor stats. And I build encounters assuming I have three to five slots of monsters and that Solo monsters fill four slots, Paired monsters fill two slots each, Group monsters fill one each, Gang monsters fill a half-slot each, and Mob monsters fill a quarter-slot each.

Of course, I could make things A LOT easier and get rid of eight f$&%ing columns on that table if I just fixed up the action economy. Which I’ll probably be talking about in June or something.

A “Quick” Note on the Math Behind the Table for Interested Numberphiles

I just want to take a minute to explain a particular little detail about the math on the table. Because there’s a non-obvious bit of adjustment happening behind the scenes. See, originally, I did this all the easy way. I recognized that monster HP increased by 15 per level and that monster damage increased by 6 per level and that I could just divide the total HP and damage output among the projected number of monsters. Easy, right?

And note that my numbers have been cleaned up a little to provide nice, clean tables. For example, the DMG says a CR 10 monster has between 206 and 220 hit points. I chose 210 as the sweet spot not because it was the average of those numbers, but because it was the number that provides a nice linear 15 point jump from one entry and the next. In every case – except ONE, I think – the HP in my table for solo monsters falls just to the left of the middle of the range suggested by the DMG. But I do like that it provided a nice clean table. Also, notice that rounding off to the nearest whole number does change some things with the mobs. The same is true of the damage column.

ANWAY…

Point is, if one CR 10 monster has 210 HP, then a pair of Veteran Tier monsters should have 105 HP each and a Group of four Veteran Tier monsters should have 52.5 HP each and so on, right? And likewise, each member of the Group should spit out 16.5 points of damage to equal the solos 66 damage output, right?

Only, it doesn’t work that way.

There are A LOT of factors that play into the difference between one monster and two and four and eight and sixteen – which are, by the way, the numbers I used for my basic calculations. And arguments can be made for upping the damage for monsters that come in smaller numbers or reducing it or increasing the hit points or decreasing the hit points and so on. And I spent months going through them all. I promise you.

Ultimately, the biggest factor, bar none, was the fact that when the party fights multiple monsters, they can reduce the number of attacks the monsters spit as they kill the monsters. So, all else being equal, if the party focusses all of their damage on one foe at a time, the four monsters will put out less than two thirds the damage than one equivalent monster will do as their number of attacks dwindle throughout a normal combat of four to six rounds. Of course, once monsters appear that outnumber the party, there’s a limit on how many monsters the party can kill each round, so there’s a lot of ways to even analyze that problem.

To counterbalance that, you need to give monsters that appear in larger numbers more damage output. But if you push the damage output up too much, the really big groups of monsters will utterly destroy a party in the first round or two before their numbers start getting reduced. I think I realized I’d need something like 8 times the damage for a mob to spit out the equivalent of a solo’s damage throughout a six-round fight based on the assumptions I was using. And that would have been a disaster.

So, to keep from having to increase the overall damage output of the biggest groups of monsters to dangerous points – and I still gotta admit that Mobs are very dangerous at Apprentice Tier – I also increased the staying power of the monsters so they had more time to do more damage without spiking the damage in the first round.

I juggled these numbers a lot. And there was no way to really nail it perfectly. But I did hit a point where it felt good. Except at Apprentice Tier, but that’s a bug of the game system. Ultimately, what you’ll find is that, as the number of monsters increases, the total damage output of all of the monsters reaches about 200% of the damage output of an equivalent solo monster and the total hit points of all the monsters reaches about 150% of the hit points of an equivalent solo monster. And that got me to a very comfortable spot.

In the end, if mobs are dealt with well – using area effects and crowd control – they are easier than they should be, but if they aren’t dealt with well, they become pretty dangerous pretty quickly. Most importantly though: with this current iteration of the numbers, the fights definitely have a different feel to them.


Subscribe to Blog via Email

Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email.

28 thoughts on “F$&% CR, There’s a Better Way (Part 2)

  1. What about the post-combat EXP?
    Should the characters earn for every encounter (assuming they are all equally balanced) an amount equal to a Medium Encounter for their actual level or for the average level in the tier of play they are in?
    Or something else entirely?

    • I suppose that’s something up to the reader. The way I see it, there are two ways to do it.

      First, you could just always give players the average expected experience for their given level. Angry covered this in a previous article, but for the life of me I can’t remember which it was. The short version is that you award XP equal to the CR of the party’s level (divided up as usual), for both encounters of any difficulty as well as milestones. So for example, a fourth level party gains 275 XP for any given encounter.

      That would result in your party having the same progression as the DMG expects despite the wobbling difficulty. IE, the early levels are very fast, the mid levels slow down significantly, etc.

      The second way would be to do the above, but calculate XP based on the middle of the tier. IE, all Journeyman PCs, regardless of level, gain 275 XP per encounter (or milestone) since 4 is the middle of that tier. This would result in PCs gaining XP faster for the hard level and slower for the easy level. This strikes me as elegant since the harder fights at the start of a tier give you more XP since you’re punching above your weight. This also means your players will spend a longer time in the easy zone though, which you may not want.

      You could also do some weirdness with choosing between the two methods depending on if you want to artificially increase or decrease the time a party spends at a certain level, or have monsters work one way and milestones the other, etc etc. Personally I like the idea of monsters calculating the second way, and milestones the first.

      • > This would result in PCs gaining XP faster for the hard level and slower for the easy level.

        You would think that, but it isn’t as pronounced beyond low levels thanks to how wonky the D&D 5e XP chart is.

        Below is a summary of the tiers, the XP each encounter awards at such a tier and then the number of encounters needed to level up:

        Apprentice: 50 XP (6; 12)
        Journeyman: 250 XP (7; 15; 30)
        Adventurer: 750 XP (12; 14; 18)
        Veteran: 1,200 XP (13; 17; 12)
        Champion: 2,200 XP (9; 9; 11)
        Heroic: 3,200 XP (9; 9; 12)
        Legendary: 4,900 XP (12; 10)

        HARD LEVELS (Level 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18): It’s pretty wobbly, but you get about 12 encounters per level at mid levels which can equal 2-3 sessions, and then 9 encounters at higher levels which is about 2 sessions.

        BALANCED LEVELS (Level 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, Level 19): Level 1 will be finished in one session for most groups which is by design by WotC. In the mid levels you’re going be getting about 2-3 sessions per level and then at high levels you’ll have about 2 sessions. This mirrors the HARD LEVELS.

        EASY LEVELS (Level 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17): Level 2 will take about 2 sessions to get through. Mid levels your looking at about 2-3 sessions once you hit Veteran tier and above. The only level with a substantially longer number of encounters required is Level 5 which could take between 5-6 sessions to get through (level 8 may also require 4 sessions). Given how D&D 5e is designed by WotC to speed through certain levels and slow down to a crawl at other levels, this was inevitable and is mostly a problem with the XP Advancement Table rather than this subsystem.

        CONCLUSION: If you consider Level 1 (balanced), Level 5 (easy), Level 8 (balanced) and Level 10 (balanced) as outliers, most levels will take between 9-12 encounters to complete. Of those “outliers” most of them only result in 1 extra session required. Most levels will require 2-3 sessions to complete.

    • If you desire variable exp rewards, then it seems to me the natural thing would be to tie it to threat level (and whatever else you tie it to, like how permanent and successful the solution was)

      On the other hand, uniform exp rewards for overcoming a combat encounter don’t seem bad in and of themselves

    • Obviously you can do whatever you want, but I expect Angry is awarding XP based on the “middle” level of each tier (level 4’s award, level 7’s award, etc). I would also personally award Level 1 awards for Apprentice tier adventures.

      Angry goes into more detail about awarding XP on this link (which also awards by tier and the levels of those tiers much up with those on this page): https://theangrygm.com/welcome-to-the-megadungeon-how-to-award-xp/

  2. Niiiice. Very nice. I’m excited to try this system out in a few weeks.

    If you’re planning on using this in your AngryRPG, I would think about reworking the terminology regarding “slots”. From the perspective of a person first encountering your terms, the imagery of “slotting” creatures in to a certain number of slots sounds limiting and exacting, feels that it adds a sense of pressure to fuss over fitting the creatures into these “slots” perfectly. Having read the article, I understand that this term implies simplicity as well; simply being able to slot creatures into a clear structure is the appeal of this system, as opposed to the clunky CR multipliers of the DMG. This, however, comes with the context of being a reader dedicated to carefully digesting everything you write; to a new gamer picking up your RPG, this aspect of the word likely won’t stick out. If there is a better term to convey the simplicity of this encounter building system quickly, without the implied rigidity of “slots”, I think it may be more intuitively understood by new players. This may be another thing to “playtest”, so to speak; see what terms help newcomers to grasp the fundamental draw of this system by explaining it to more people. Could other commenters offer their thoughts on this?

    There may be other elements of the terming that could use work, but this sticks out the most to me. I think names are important in RPG design. A lot of confusion arises when using 5E due to poor naming of systems that fail to convey properly the intent of that system in the game.

    • I actually think “slots” is the simplest and most effective term. Maybe it relies on previous gamer knowledge, but think about all the games with an “inventory slot” system. Resident Evil, Diablo, etc. You have x space for things (3 to 5 monsters), and each monster takes up y number of spaces (1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, 4). “Slots” with variable “thing sizing” is a pretty common term in gaming.

      • I can understand that, but you’re addressing the simplicity of “slots” but not the restrictive connotations. If I had to fit monsters into slots, I would feel compelled to fit the creatures exactly into the slots, rather than playing around with the monster dynamics and possibly creating a more interesting encounter. I just find the term a little limiting. Whether I am right about this is up for debate, but the rigidity of the term is what I’m talking about.

  3. I’m excited to try this out, I’ve spent far to much time working backwards to figure out the right stats of monsters to add up to the numbers I needed all when my players never see nor care about them (obviously excepting when saving throws are required).

    I’d be interested in how everyone deals with stun-locks at higher levels. I have a 14th level monk in my game who has enough ki to eventually get just about any monster to fail a con save and be stunned. This makes for boring fights, but I also don’t want to just take away a key feature of the monk.

    Due to the actual time we have to play (~2.5 hours weekly) and the speed of combat I’ve never managed to get any where close to the 5-6 encounters a day range where resource attrition would solve this problem, plus at 14 ki per short rest and nothing much to spend it on stunning strike is nearly always the best option.

  4. Notwithstanding a monster’s philosophy (e.g. dragons seem pretty solitary creatures, goblins find strength in numbers) and gameplay implications (i.e. dragons should have skills that stand alone, while goblins should synergise with others)…

    Couldn’t some of the “slot” differences be made up by picking monsters from a higher or lower tier? So your party starts off fighting four goblins (a scouting party), but three or four levels later take on sixteen of them (because the main goblin army is now attacking, or whatever). Or, at an early level you might fight two goblins and an ogre, but later on, four ogres is a good challenge. That kind of thing.

    I don’t know the game well enough to know if this would work, but it seems a reasonable thing to try. It might give a really good feeling of progression, as something that was once a challenging boss now becomes sword-fodder.

    • I was just going to ask a similar question. I like having monsters from earlier tiers hang around and popping up occasionally. The problem I’ve always had is that as the players’ defenses advance the lower tier monsters just become incapable of actually hitting them and the damage column in the table becomes essentially a dead letter. I don’t want to keep coming up with new more powerful versions of the same monsters, because I want to avoid the statistical treadmill. If the goblins the party is fighting are always roughly equivalent to the party, then the players never feel that they’re actually improving. I have found that Pack Tactics keeps monsters relevant a lot longer while still allowing the party to feel they’ve gained a measure of superiority over the monsters on an individual basis.

    • Yes and no. If the desire is to make monsters and that’s it, then yes. And that’s the route that the 5e DMG and MM went down for the most part.

      But in Angry’s article that’s only one half of the equation. The other half is encounter design and that’s where monster types are far superior to CR and XP budgets.

      Species can be categorized in broad categories if you were so inclined. In the MM duergar and goblin bosses are the same CR (CR 1), but how you use them is likely quite different.

      I would say goblins are apprentice tier monsters while duergar would be adventurer*. A goblin boss woul be a pair monster which means he fights with a fair number of goblin underlings, or maybe a few less goblins and a guard dog. Pairing him up with allies gets the most out of his redirect attack ability.

      Duergar on the other hand fight in teams. Even with the same HP as the goblin boss (45 HP), the duergar can still be a party monster. That tells you that players will be facing about 3 to 5 duergar, or perhaps they’re a mercenary working for another adventurer creature and so there will only be 1 or 2.

      By describing monsters with two words: , you can quite easily know what role each of these monsters will play in an encounter (which is pretty close to how D&D 4e did it).

      The D&D 5e default way describes them both as CR 1 monsters. In theory this means that you are just as likely to face 4 duergar as you are to face 4 goblin bosses. Which makes no sense. Now you can study the monster and work out what tier it fits into and how many should appear in an encounter. You then work through the XP budget and the math to work out equivalencies….

      OR you save all that work by creating custom monsters that have a 2 word descriptor to tell you how to allocate them in your encounter design. And “creating custom monsters” can be as easy as crossing out and replacing HP and AC values for an existing monster and potentially removing a damaging ability or two from the monster.

      And if you want to be really clever and save yourself a lot more time in encounter design, you could do what angry has implied/said he does for his monsters. That is you would actually use three categories: with role determining if they’re a tank, striker, leader, etc.

      *You could also reasonably call them journeyman monsters but I went with the more extreme option to demonstrate how useful Angry’s system appears to be.

  5. My big question is how do I account for battlefield control abilities? Monsters who can take a PC out of the fight with stuff like blindness, paralysis, charm, etc, or worse yet, turn PCs into more opponents for players to fight? How much should the ability to cast dominate monster, for example, affect how I balance things? A fight where your party fighter is helping the baddies, or half your party is standing there staring at the glowy thing for a couple turns, is a lot harder than one that’s just a straight slugfest, all other things being equal, and yet neither the standard CR nor your system has any guidelines for how to balance stuff like that.

    • Battlefield control, status conditions, turning PCs into monsters all do one of three things:
      1) Create obstacles that makes it harder for the PCs to reach the bad guys while allowing them to damage the PCs (effectively increasing their HP).
      1a) Reduce the amount of damage a PC can do (due to being asleep, dazed, whatever) in 3 rounds which is the same as creating an obstacle.
      2) Impart a penalty on the PC’s for their attack roll (effectively increasing their AC).
      3) Make the PCs attack their allies (which increases the amount of damage that the monster can deal and potentially increase their HP depending on if they need to reduce the PC to 0 HP first or if the PC gets “turned” in the first round of combat).

      That is the core elements of battlefield control abilities that I can see. Everything else is just window dressing to change the narrative of what is happening.

    • You could account for that in the column of HP the monster has. If you remove a PC from combat, just imagine that PCs damage they would have done is added to the monsters HP.

  6. Hmmm… so the Good HP of a Solo monster at Apprentice tier… is the Good HP of a Pair monster at Adventurer tier… is the Average HP of a Party monster at Heroic tier… neat!! Ah but… monsters are much more complex the fewer allies they have… So yeah, it seems like even to represent facing the same enemy at different tiers, it’s better to design a different stat block per tier.

    This is all amazing, but I really don’t care about 5e. I’ll just have to wait for you to publish you own game!!

    Man, all this math… I’d legit pay you to make that table for PF2… Not that I have the money to spend Bxp
    I guess I’ll just have to do the work!!

    • PF2e recently released an early version of their Build Your Own Dude table they’re putting in the Gamemastery book. You could, with time and effort, use that and the Bestiary to reverse engineer one.
      Depending on the effort you put in, you could shortcut taking the average at each level and just having a +/- for strong/weak or sort it all out.

      In fact, I’m doing that for both editions right now, because I like data entry and analysis a lot.
      That isn’t to say this won’t involve a bunch of playtesting and tweaking.

  7. OK – this is a very exciting approach to building encounters, much more practical and lego-like. I really want to go through the MM and figure out how to massage the monsters into these tiers. If ever there was a project calling out for crowd sourcing this is it. Actually a Google Spreadsheet would work pretty well with sheets for the different tiers…

    I love the idea of transitioning into a new tier bringing a whole threat level increase, after the rush of being the most powerful in the previous tier. In fact this tier system seems like it would lead nicely into adventure design where an adventure would cover a particular tier (and thus allow a busy DM to quickly assemble a larger campaign from plug-and-play tier adventures. Lego sets built out of the lego pieces…

    OK the possibilities that could develop from this approach are pretty mind blowing. Congrats Angry – this is truly a revolution in encounter design and character leveling!

    • Looking at the Apprentice Tier though, I have to wonder if any PCs will make it out of Level 1 alive? The average “party monster” (?!) HP is 23 making a group of 4 have almost 100 HP in total. That’s about 60 HP more than the standard starting group of 4 characters. Or am I confused?

      I’m kind of thinking that all the tier 1 monster HPs need to be halved?

      • Keep in mind Angry has playtested these creation rules so if he says these values are correct, then I would expect most groups will get beyond level 1.

        If we look at the DMG monster creation rules and compare it with Apprentice Tier’s “Average” row:
        AC 13: Appropriate for monsters between CR 0 and CR 3

        23 HP: Appropriate for CR 1/8 monsters.

        +4 Attack Bonus: Monsters between CR 0 and CR 2 typically have a +2 bonus, but by the DMG’s rules you can increase the attack bonus by +1 without adjusting the CR of a monster.

        Save DC 13: Appropriate for monsters between CR 0 and CR 3.

        5 damage per round: Appropriate for CR 1/4 monsters.

        So this monster is roughly between CR 1/8 and CR 1/4. If we assign it a CR 1/8 then 4 monsters with these traits will be a medium encounter for level 1 PCs. If we assign it a CR 1/4 then 4 monsters with these traits will be a Deadly encounter.

        So if you’re really worried about this, you might want to decrease damage rather than HP. Reducing damage to the “poor” row would make this a firmly CR 1/8 creature which keeps the encounter firmly as a medium encounter. Or reduce the number of creatures encountered. Stick with the middle row, throw 3 creatures against your players and you will have a “hard” encounter. If they truly do find it hard, you’ll know at low levels you might want to stick to the Threat Level -1 creatures. If they don’t have a hard encounter, then you know they can take on Threat Level 0 or even Threat Level +1 monsters.

        I think the biggest factors will be luck and player skill rather than whether or not a monster has +2 to it’s damage rolls.

        • Yeah – I really think it’s pretty way off. As Angry says in the article a stiff wind can knock level 1 characters down. I think the average row needs to be balanced against a level 1 party. Then when they get to level 2 things get a little easier before things really ramp up with the next tier.

          The DMGs monster building guidelines are well known to misalign with the actual monsters in the MM.

          But I’m very interested to hear Angry’s take on Level 1 survivability with this table, I know it’s been play tested, but I’m finding it hard to fathom 🙂

          • I think that the discrepancy has to do with how low-level monsters tend to not be able to hit PCs very often. As a player, your AC doesn’t really change between Apprentice and Journeyman, just your health, so by balancing the monsters around missing a lot and taking a lot of hits you should still hit that target six turn encounter. The flip side, of course, being that when the monsters inevitably hit, they hit like a freight train. Personally, I like this because it gives those starting levels a more desperate feel, as your characters transition from civilian life to becoming professional adventurers, figuring things out along the way.

    • Having a play, in a spreadsheet, with a variety of Tier 1 Bandits (the weapons are purely for set dressing as the damage output is governed by the spreadsheet not the weapon itself, but I’ve included dice so that damage can be rolled if desired):

      Bandit Recruit: Poor Gang 1/2 HP: 11, AC: 11
      DPR: 2, ATT: +2
      Shortsword. M: 5ft. 2 (1d4) slashing
      Dagger. M: 5ft. 2 (1d4) piercing

      Bandit Standard: Average Party 1 HP: 23, AC: 13: Leather Armor
      DPR: 5, ATT: +4
      Scimitar. M: 5ft. 5 (1d6+2) slashing
      Light Crossbow. R: 80/320ft. 5 (1d8+1) piercing

      Bandit Sergeant Average Pair 2 HP: 38, AC: 13: Leather Armor
      DPR: 8, ATT: +4
      Multiattack: 2 M or 2 R
      Scimitar. M: 5ft. 4 (1d6+1) slashing
      Light Crossbow. R: 80/320ft. 4 (1d8) piercing

      Bandit Captain Good Solo 4 HP: 90, AC 15: Studded Leather
      DPR: 18 ATT: +5
      Multiattack: 3 M or 2 R
      Scimitar. M: 5ft. 6 (1d6+3) slashing
      Dagger. M: 5ft/R: 20/60ft. 5 (1d4+3) piercing
      Special: Parry. Adds 2 to AC against one M ATT

      It was certainly very easy to come up with a variety of options (based off the MM), but does that look like it’s on the right track?

  8. Something not mentioned in the article that I’m curious about: the adventuring day. If a typical encounter is average challenge how many would be reasonable? I’m guessing 3? It also depends at which stage of the tier the characters are in of course.

  9. This is a pretty cool system. In my last campaign, I started building my monsters using Giffygliph’s monster maker. That system was built with some math analysis for HP, attack, damage & saves which he then tinkered with and filtered it through a 4e-like system with monster levels, ranks and & roles combined with your (Angry’s) paragon system for elites and bosses.

    Here’s a link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wEpJ50iHqLyueYc0a4cBS9F0DRbsJIgI/view
    (If I’m not allowed to share links, sorry)

    It really improved the quality of my fights but I found something was lacking and the tier idea was exactly what was going through my head ever since I read your articles about the megadungeon encounters, the wheel-n-Spock campaign structure and the simplification of XP per combat from your old adventure articles.

    I’d also been eyeing the idea of low power scaling (From OSR) combined with looser combat balance due to the sameness of the fights at different levels.

    I think all these ideas are coalescing in my brain so that I can run great fights more. (Just need to be a good combat dolphin now).

    Your blog was what helped give me the confidence to try GMing & I feel like I’m finally becoming an adventurer tier GM.
    Thanks for all of the advice, Angry. 🙂

  10. Hi, I finally made an account.

    Not sure if accident or skilled writing, but the previous article leads one to the same conclusion. After thinking about the swing of difficulty, +/- 1 level, it is beyond easy to come to the same tiers of play conclusion presented here. -1 is easy, +1 is hard, or the 3 level swing of each of your tiers. And it works amazingly well with the players tier jumps to make them feel powerful. Very organic.

    It’s so painfully obvious, it’s a wonder if the designers were injecting crack straight into their brains to not notice and went with that dumb easy/med/hard/deadly nonsense not connected or hooked off the levels.

Leave a F$&%ing Comment (Limit: 2,500 Characters)

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.