Remember that odd little three-part thesis I started about the nature of tabletop roleplaying gameplay, adventure, and challenge design? Well, this be the second part.
As I said last time, I’m going to bringing together a bunch of crap I’ve said in passing over the years into a sort of comprehensive approach to challenge and gameplay design. Consequently, I’m going to repeating things a few of you have probably heard. But, I’m going to unpacking the heck out of some stuff and I’m building toward something big here.
That said, I still don’t plan to explain the title. It’s an obscure reference to something that has nothing to do with what it is. You’ll have to wait for the third part. Unless I forget.
Anyway…
The Key You Have to Hide
A few weeks ago, I made a terrible remark in a public forum. It wasn’t the sort of thing most of you, my loyal, dedicated, and intelligent readers, would find objectionable, but the wider roleplaying game world really got their panties in a jimmy over it. One YouTube content creator even featured it in a video in which he made the very clever and intelligent counterargument: “The Angry GM is a stupid dummy-head.” I wish I was kidding.
The remark was this…
If your adventure includes a locked door, it better also have a key to that door. If you rely on your players to simply creative their way past it or if you rely on them to roll dice through it, you’re design is bad and you should feel bad. Your challenges must include gameplay solutions.
Now, my first essay in this miniseries was about why you can’t rely on your players to simply creative their way through a challenge. You can probably guess what this essay’s about. Especially given the title. You can probably also guess what’s coming in the third.
By the way, if any of you thickos still haven’t grokked it, this isn’t just about locks and keys. Locks and keys represent obstacles and the means to bypass those obstacles. I was stunned to discover how many mouthbreathers exist in the wider roleplaying gaming world who couldn’t see this as about anything other than locks and keys and even tried to argue that it’s unrealistic to think locks would always have keys. After all, people build locks without keys all the time. Who would even expect those to come in pairs?
I shit you not. I wish I was shitting you. I am not going to dignify any of that actual horsecrap with a response, but if I ever need to argue for a Game Mastering licensing board to prevent incompetent asshats from running games, that’s basically going to be my opening statement.
Anyway…
At the same time this debate was going on, there circulated a post about Naked Persuasion checks, which is a topic that absolutely never gets old, am I right? It’s funny because it’s basically the same thing as locks and keys, but no one gets it.
Naked Persuasion Is the Worst Persuasion
Stop me if you’ve heard one…
The Game Master says the guard refuses the party entry, so one of the players, let’s call him Asshat McDumbface, says, “I roll a Persuasion check,” and then immediate bounces a die across the table. There’s no proper action declaration. There’s not even a reference to what the character is saying or doing or their demeanor. It’s just a player throwing a die roll at a challenge to negate it, a naked die roll.
Of course, we here at my website know that’s just wrong. The player is playing wrong and, if the Game Master allows that crap, they’re running the game wrong. One does not merely call for a die roll; a player has to tell the Game Master what their character is trying to accomplish and how they’re trying to accomplish it. Then, the Game Master can call for a die roll if necessary.
We’ve also all heard the pissy little bullshit player responses, right? We’ve heard players say, “My character is more Charismatic than me, so I shouldn’t have to act out what I’m saying,” or “You can’t evaluate my character’s action based on my ability to roleplay,” or, “The rules say I can take the Influence action to make the guard let me in.”
It’s all specious, incorrect crap. Even that last one. Seriously. Check the literal first player-facing chapter of the current rules of one of the world’s roleplaying games. PHB (2024) 17-18 describes both the first-person acting and third-person describing methods of taking social actions and then gives an example of a proper, non-acted-out-but-still-properly-declared social action.
I offer that, by the way, so you can skip debating with your player on the nature of Charisma and what can and can’t be required players and skip right to slamming down the rulebook in front of them and saying, “Play right or get out.”
When even the quote-unquote professional roleplaying game designers at Wizards of the Coast can get this crap right, it shouldn’t even be a debate anymore.
But that ain’t my point here. My point is two-fold. First, I want you to see that there’s more to this than locks and keys. The lock-and-key is a stand-in for any challenge you put in your game: a locked door, a swollen river with a washed-out bridge, a guard on a door, whatever. The adventure design rules apply the same to all of them. You can’t put a locked door, a swollen river, or a guard on the door in your adventure without including an actual gameplay means by which the players can attempt to bypass the article.
My second point is actually the entire rest of this whole essay. It’s about the weird relationship between rolling dice and gameplay. Because, as I’ve said many times before and now intend to explain in excruciating detail with actual academic references…
Rolling dice isn’t gameplay.
Rolling Dice Isn’t Gameplay
Well, crap…
I have this bad habit of making promises I can’t keep. But I usually don’t do it in the span of two paragraphs in a heading. I gotta be honest: I’m not sure I can explain why rolling dice isn’t gameplay in excruciating detail. The whole thing just kind of baffles me.
Look, I’m pretty good at analyzing, unpacking, and explaining in excruciating detail. That’s what keeps so many of you coming back. I know. I have all the e-mails and messages. My ego is huge and needs a lot a stroking, so I’ve compiled all the positive feedback I’ve ever received into this thing I call my stroke book.
Part of my ability to unpack this stuff is down to my analytical and critical nature, part of it’s down to my ability to see things with what’s called a beginner’s mind, and part of it’s down to my ability to understand how other people see things so I can figure out where the misunderstandings and miscommunications are coming from. But this fight, the one about how rolling dice isn’t gameplay, it just confuses the hell out of me.
I can’t understand how there’s even an argument. This ain’t an opinion, it’s just a fact. It’s practically definition. Rolling dice is something you often do while playing games, and many games incorporate dice as a gameplay element, but actual die-rolling, by itself, isn’t gameplay. It’s just generating a random number and, usually, comparing that to some fixed number. If all you’re doing is rolling dice to get a certain number, you’re not playing a game. I don’t know how to make that clear to people whose brains are too broken to get it.
It’s like trying to explain how mixing paint colors isn’t actually painting. It’s like trying to explain how grocery shopping isn’t cooking. You can see why someone might confuse the two, but when it comes down to actually explaining why one thing isn’t another thing that it isn’t, it’s hard to know where to start.
I think part of the problem is that people don’t know what gameplay actually is. Or that there even is a definition.
If Dice-Rolling Isn’t Gameplay, What Is?
So what actually is gameplay? Well, that’s tricky to answer. Not because there isn’t an answer, but because the answer isn’t quite what people think. See, gameplay isn’t a single activity, but rather, it’s a broad collection of different activities that create certain psychological responses in human brains. Consequently, you end up with descriptive definitions that are constantly being refined and tightened, and there’s a lot of space to quibble over details.
That’s why you can end up with broad-to-the-point-of-worthless definitions like Dino Dini’s, “Gameplay is interaction that entertains,” and Sid Meier’s, “Gameplay is a series of interesting choices,” floating around. But even those definitions actually do hint at an important common ground that shows up in the more refined definitions presented by folks like Rollings, Adams, Rouse, Juul, Salen, and Zimmerman. If you look all the various definitions, a clear descriptive pattern starts to emerge.
I’m not going to take you through the whole thing. You can check my work on your own if you think I’m somehow lying or incorrect in my conclusions. I’m just going to skip to the common denominator, because that’s the important bit…
Gameplay is players making choices within the constraints of the game system and the system’s responses affecting what the players can or should do next.
You can sit that next to the common-denominator definition of game that I also didn’t pull out of my ass, but arrived at in the same way by trusting the analysis of people way smarter than me and which forms the backbone of my approach to True Scenario Designery…
A game is an activity in which the players attempt to accomplish a goal by overcoming challenges while acting within the confines of a system of rules and mechanics.
Or, if you prefer…
A game has a goal, challenges, and rules.
The thing is, these definitions don’t matter much. Or rather, the arguments about what fits and what doesn’t don’t really matter. If you want to write your own adventures and encounters, you just have to know that you need a goal, challenges, and rules. If you want to run gameplay as a Game Master, you have to know gameplay is what happens when the players interact with the game by way of their choices and in responses to feedback from the game. Which, basically just means, “You describe the situation, the players choose the actions their characters take, you determine and describe the results, and the players act in response.”
We really don’t need to fight over the nitpicky details.
Defining gameplay beyond a basic, practical description has the same problem that that defining chair does. Ultimately, a chair is an object that’s defined by it’s purpose. Gameplay is an activity that’s defined by its affect on people. Thus, the word is actually a pretty big tent and a lot of things can fit in the tent. But the tent isn’t infinitely big. Everything can’t fit in the tent or else the tent itself becomes pointless. We can split hairs about what stuff that looks it belongs in the tent actually does, but when it comes to things that clearly, definitionally don’t fit in the tent, there’s no really argument to have.
Rolling dice isn’t, by itself, gameplay because there’s no choice and no interaction. Players just bounce plastic math rocks and see what numbers come up. They don’t decide anything, their choices don’t impact the outcome, so they’re not playing a game.
The missing element is choice.
But that’s where things get tricky.
Stupid Choices Don’t Count
So, there’s this door, right? It’s locked. Your character has this skill, right? It’s called Lockpicking. That skill allows you to roll a die to open a locked door without a key.
Is trying to Lockpicking a locked door actually a choice?
In the most technical sense, you can argue it’s a choice, but in the context of gameplay, which is based on its psychological impact, is it really a choice?
Let’s assume you’re playing one of the world’s roleplaying games. It doesn’t actually matter which edition, here, because lockpicking has basically worked the same since it was introduced in Supplement I: Greyhawk back in 1975. It’s just a naked die roll to open a locked door without a key. Das ist alles. Sure, the dice you rolled in 1975 were different as were the rules for determining the odds of success and some details have changed about whether or not you can retry a failed attempt from edition to edition, but none of that affects the fact that it’s just a naked die roll.
Well, one thing kinda matters. I’ll get back to that later. Unless I forget.
By the rules-as-written alone, without any extra input from the specific adventure, trying to Lockpicking a locked door is trivial. It costs nothing, it risks nothing, and failure leaves you no worse off than you were before the attempt. There is literally no good reason not to try to Lockpicking every lock you come across.
While it’s technically a choice, it’s not a choice anyone with half a brain would choose not to make. It’s just a free chance to bypass a lock based on a random number.
You can argue that’s evidence that the skill or the game mechanics are badly designed, but that’s a fight for another day and a different series. Especially because this ain’t just about keys and locks.
Consider, for example, the various flavors of searching for things like traps and secret doors. Or, more interestingly, let’s consider Naked Persuasion.
The Philosophical Argument About Naked Persuasion
So, there’s this NPC between you and your goal, right? They won’t let you have the goal. Your character has this skill, right? It’s called Persuasion. That skill allows you to roll a die to make an NPC do what you want.
Is trying to Persuasion the NPC actually a choice?
In the general case, following the rules-as-written, no: trying to Persuasion an NPC isn’t actually a choice. It either works or it doesn’t, it risks nothing, and it costs nothing. There is no reason not to try to Persuasion every NPC you come across.
Remember that arguments about mechanical design are for another day, but I will admit the Persuasion is a little hazier here because it has been handled in various ways through the years. But I want to stay firmly in the realm of conceptual discussion about what constitutes actual gameplay here.
What’s interesting, though, is that Game Masters are a little more intuitive about this than they are about locks and keys. Game Masters resist players making naked Persuasion rolls. They know it ain’t right. They just don’t always know why it ain’t right. Except now you do. A Persuasion check without a proper action declaration isn’t gameplay. It’s just lockpicking people instead of doors. That’s precisely why Dungeons & Dragons designers were smart enough to make it clear that you can’t just roll naked Persuasion checks in the first twenty pages of the current edition.
The reason why it’s okay for doors and not people is that social interaction is considered a core gameplay mode. Bypassing locked doors is incidental. It’s a minor part of the game. But, again, that’s a discussion for another time.
As a side note, there’s a whole bunch of corollaries to this that Game Masters do regularly screw up, down, and sideways. For example, if you don’t modify the odds of success based on the player’s described approach to the social action, that ain’t gameplay. It’s just a naked die roll with extra steps. Also, if you allow a social interaction to succeed or fail automatically without considering the character’s skills and attributes, that ain’t gameplay.
The definitional nature of gameplay as a concept demands that social interactions be resolved as follows…
The player decides what the character says and how they say it; the character’s skills and attributes determine how well they say and do it.
Any other means of resolving social actions is as wrong as the player demanding to naked Persuasion the guard. Factually and axiomatically.
Does Destructive Entry Change the Answer?
Let’s get back to Lockpicking. Unlike Persuasion, it’s not really possible to demand the players make choices about Lockpicking, is it? A player can describe a particular social approach, they can choose what to say, they can choose a tone and a demeanor, and those things can and should affect the outcome, but Lockpicking just doesn’t work like that. Lockpicking is just how you get past locks you don’t have keys for; it’s just a thing your character can attempt.
But Lockpicking is just one of the two common ways to open a locked door without a key, isn’t it? You can also try Doorbreaking. That option has also existed since the very earliest days of one of the world’s roleplaying games. Again, the details have changed, but conceptually, it’s still exactly the same. Door locked? Stuck? Barred? Roll a die roll? Did you roll enough? The door is opened, huzzah and forsooth!
Does adding Doorbreaking make Lockpicking a choice? No. Because they’re both still trivial actions, naked die rolls, and they’re not exclusive. You can try to pick the lock and then, if you fail, you can try to break down the door. You’d be stupid not to try both.
In the general case. I know some people are going to bring up all sorts of things that could affect the decision like noise and wandering monsters and we can talk about how strongly various editions did or did not advise Game Masters to use those things and what the core rules-as-written actually say, but that still ain’t today’s topic.
Even if Doorbreaking and Lockpicking were somehow exclusive, even if attempting one meant you could never try the other, would that make it gameplay? Well, here we have another technically yes, but no situation. Because every playgroup would handle that choice exactly the same way. Everyone would consider their Doorbreaking and Lockpicking modifiers and whoever had the highest raw number would use whatever skill or ability was best.
You see the pattern, right? A choice that literally everyone makes the same way isn’t actually choice. Which means it isn’t gameplay.
There’s More At Stake Than Philosophy
So, that wraps up this essay, right? I’ve successfully and correctly proven that relying on players to succeed on naked die rolls is bad design because there’s no gameplay to it. You can’t ever have a challenge that’s simply demands the players successfully roll to Lockpicking or Doorbreaking the locked door. But I’m not actually done. First, because the argument isn’t complete and second, because naked die rolls exist and something’s got to be done with them.
The problem with a challenge to successfully succeed on a naked die roll is actually that the players have nothing to do with the outcome. If they can’t get through the door, it’s not because of the choices they made, but rather because the coldly impartial plastic math rock said no. The players couldn’t have done anything different. There is no choice a reasonable player could have made differently to affect the outcome. There is also no recourse. There’s nothing the players can do next. The challenge is just over. The players lost that fight and they had nothing to do with it.
Which is why naked die rolls and open-ended creativity challenges have some of the same problems. Both look like gameplay, but once you educate yourself and see what’s going on under the hood, you realize the players don’t have a say in the outcome. It’s not just that they have no recourse, they can’t even just accept the loss and move on.
It is okay for the players to fail to overcome a challenge. It’s okay if there’s a door they never get through. It’s okay if they fail to win an adventure. Losing is part of gameplay. But the players have to have a fair chance to win. If they had made different decisions, the outcome should have been different. And this ain’t just a feeling thing. That has to be true.
That’s why games must be about gameplay; the players have to earn the outcome they deserve.
Won’t Someone Think of the Naked Die Rolls
Now my argument is complete, but before I tell you to come back next week or whenever for the final part of this series, let me acknowledge that the problem of naked die rolls is never going away. There are reasons why they keep cropping up in roleplaying games of every kind, especially in certain kinds of situations. It’s sort of related, philosophically, to that Hacking Problem thing I once wrote about, but there’s other factors too.
You see, some clever folks did respond to my terrible locks-and-keys in adventure design post by asking me what to do with Lockpicking? Did I suggest that you just not let players try to Lockpicking any door that I designed for them to bypass by a more gameplay kind of way.
My answer was a firm, sweary negative. I don’t truck with old-school, arbitrary, Gygaxian bullshit design where the elf isn’t allowed to search for this secret door because, “Screw you; that’s why.” If there’s a lock and a character has the Lockpicking skill, you can’t just refuse to let the character try to Lockpicking the lock because you don’t want them getting through the lock the wrong way.
Naked dice rolls exist. They even have a proper place in adventure design. So do open-ended creativity challenges. That will be the whole point of the third essay. I’m not trying to replace open-ended creativity or naked dice rolls, I’m trying to add a third thing called actual gameplay as an option for people who can’t open-ended creativity past a challenge and who don’t have the right skills or the good luck to make naked rolls.
For now, though, let me tell you that properly handling naked die rolls comes down to two things.
First, if there is any way to demand a proper action declaration in which the approach impacts the outcome somehow, do that. Don’t ever let your players roll naked Persuasion rolls and modify their roll based on their approach. Ask for specifics when it comes to Searching for things and Investigating scenes. I’ll have a lot to say about those specific topics in a future article, actually.
Second, when it comes to things like Doorbreaking and Lockpicking and even Hacking, think of them like opportunities for players to get lucky and bypass minor challenges. Yeah, there’s a key to this door guarded by a beast in the next room, but if you brought the right skill and make a good roll, you can open the door without the key, you lucky duck. Sure, the information you need can be gleaned by gathering the three files from the three different rooms, but if you successfully Hacking the computer in the office, you can get everything you need in one go.
Which, by the way, actually does highlight one key difference between the modern D&D approach and the old-school Pick Locks thief skill and Open Doors roll. The odds of success on the old-school rolls were pretty low. They naturally became a bonus chance to luckily bypass an obstacle and people expected them to fail more often than they succeeded.
Maybe you should think about that when you set your Difficulty Classes.

I’ve been down a game loop rabbit hole since right before you mentioned them, and this ties concepts together for me.
Gameplay is the process of the core game loop: declare, determine, describe in this case. Rolling dice is a potential part of a part of that loop: one possible tool used to determine.
The same way cooking is an entire process and preheating the oven is a potential part of a part of the process.
Preheat the lockpicks so they become soft and malleable? There’s something tantalizing about that thought, other than the whole logic thing.
Fascinating, thank you for the article!
I somehow was able to come a similar definition of gameplay as Sid Meier’s “gameplay is a series of interesting choices” but I agree with your more complete definition of “A game is an activity in which the players attempt to accomplish a goal by overcoming challenges while acting within the confines of a system of rules and mechanics.” and “A game has a goal, challenges, and rules.”
I think this is why I weaned off of traditional games for a while because, how I felt was, many traditional games didn’t offer many (if any) “interesting” choices. That’s probably due to my own crappy adventure design back in the day, (way too many solo monsters in a box) but I felt like the narrative tended to gravitate towards “uninteresting gameplay”. And if it’s uninteresting, is it even a game at all? It reminds me of how when “walking simulators” first became popular there was a lot of discussion about whether these even counted as “games”. My personal opinion is “no, but that doesn’t make them bad” but I have found that people still call them “video games” even though they feel like interactive movies to me.
Really looking forward to the next articles!
Your last few paragraphs (I’d never bypass an article XD ) made me remember a chart I put together when thinking about your recommendation to only roll dice when there’s a real chance of success and failure. I included different DCs and chance to succeed based on Modifier, Proficiency, and Expertise. For characters trained in a skill that uses their primary modifier, Easy (DC 10) quickly becomes nearly impossible to fail.
What it really drove home was that with the prevalence of stacking bonuses to skill checks (Guidance [1d4], Flash of Genius [+INT], Tactical Mind [1d10], Enhance Ability [advantage], etc.), players can nearly guarantee success on any skill check in a mechanical, push-button, post-hoc (after players see that a roll failed) way with no risk (many of these are only expended on a successful check). I guess the gameplay here is expending a resource that could have been used on something else, but in practice as a player it’s nearly impossible to run out. I think this is related to your insight that an obvious, mathematically optimal solution is not gameplay. Unfortunately, the game design seems to point players more towards “boost your dice roll” instead of “consider your approach”. I’m still trying to encourage my players to leave that mindset.
Which is precisely why I said I didn’t want to get bogged down in discussing whether the mechanical design of a specific game was interefering. That said, I both agree and disagree.
I totally agree that these definitions for “game” make sense in an RPG context.
But if used as general definitions, don’t they imply that things like “Snakes and Ladders” are not a game because there is no choice or decision involved?
Didn’t I say something about, pointless, hypothetical arguments about what does and does not fit in the tent?
Not to dive into the definitional argument, but having a toddler while thinking about game design has given me a different perspective on what I would have dismissed as non-games in my 20s, especially as it relates to challenge. We have a very simple game; six colored snails, 2d6 with each face a color, roll dice, move snail, first snail to the end wins. I watch my son (he’s 2) struggle to move the right snail to the next spot on the board (oh, it’s the red one! what spot does he go to next?) and more importantly develop the fine motor skills to do that and handle disappointment when his favorite snail doesn’t win; it’s made me realize that challenge and choice extend beyond the four corners of the game box.
And that those challenges are deliberate, not accidental.
Yeah, but also remember that toddlers aren’t people. They’re brains are still squishy and smooth and they don’t understand fundamental game-design principles.
Designing games for children is very different from designing for adults and a lot of game design for children is more about skill-building than engagement, satisfaction, and fulfillment. But these sorts of skill-practice activities don’t necessarily qualify as games. That’s why, as an adult, you wouldn’t play Candy Land or Move the Snail for actual engagement or satisfaction. You might think it’s just because they don’t challenge you, but it’s actually because they actually aren’t really games.
They’re like formula and baby food. They provide vital nutrients to undeveloped humans, but they aren’t intrinsically satisfying.
Skipping over the Game or Not question, I think a big part of games is how they affect people. What I find interesting about Snakes and Ladders is, given that I know I have no agency, why do I enjoy it? Why do I get satisfaction from winning? Why do I find myself plotting a route to victory? Why do I feel I can will the dice to give me good numbers? Why do I get bored with randomly rolling dice in less than a minute, but stay engaged with Snakes and Ladders for half an hour? Why do I remember spending a whole game at the bottom of the board, being trash-talked by snotty-nosed nephews, before surging forward to claim all the glory?
After all, people build locks without keys all the time. Who would even expect those to come in pairs?
That’s right they do, they are called walls.
So, yeah lockpicking, there was this whole article about doors which I should get back to. Currently, in many systems, there’s nothing telling people that failed their lockpicking, because you set a high DC, that they can’t roll it again ad nauseum.
How did it work back in the days or in your games? Only one attempt allowed? Or did it trigger a random encounter chance? Do you set different reasons why they can’t do it depending on dungeons, or do you have a rule to ring them all?
I was trying to find other cases but I they either go into the passive check category or gameplay is a result of the dice rather than other way around, like you failed your perception check so you get an ambush in your face, but how are you going to deal with now that you’re all half dead and your PNJ is screaming from the arrow he took in the leg and likely to die from bloodloss? Crafting would fall in that category too, although I don’t really care about it myself.
For myself, I am always looking for what uncertainty can be resolved by the check. So if there’s plenty of time to try to pick a lock and the player has the skill to try it, but it might take all day, then there’s not a whole lot of important uncertainty. Maybe you even tell the player the dc for how long it will take. Get a 10, 3 hours, 25, 30 seconds. That at least gives bragging rights and answers some low stakes uncertainty.
So really it doesn’t matter what the skill is, or if it’s a naked die roll situation… The dice are there to answer a question where we can feel some uncertainty and want to know the answer. Otherwise, i just describe the outcome based upon the players skill, resources etc.
Locked door ahead
-I’ll pick it
A. It will take you at least a minute and the enemy is already on the stairs, you are sure you’re caught if you try
B. It’s a design you know well, and your picks are perfect for it. The door is unlocked in seconds
C. You know you can get thru but you aren’t sure how long it will take you, and it could cost you valuable time, do you want to make the attempt?
-Bad roll: you are halfway thru the sequence when you hear the enemies in the stairwell, you won’t get it open in time. What do you do?
-good roll: you win lockpicking
I think it took a dungeon turn (~10 mins) like most other things outside combat. And dungeon turns triggered random encounters, spent torch time, etc.
I.e. the time cost always mattered.
I suspect a 6-second action to pick a lock is absurdly quick for anything but the most basic safe lock in optimal conditions.
The inability of so many “gamers” to grasp that there even is an actual definition of what a “game” is continues to be a major frustration for me.
I am curious about one part of the article that almost feels like a trap:
“There is no choice a reasonable player could have made differently to affect the outcome.”
Wouldn’t the player’s choices in character creation/character advancement affect the outcome? I’ve always considered that process a vital part of the gameplay for precisely that reason. I know this world will have these Naked Die Roll challenges, and I don’t have the resources to be good at all of them, so I choose to be good at those that fit my character. Hopefully, I can group myself with other players’ characters who chose to be good at the ones I’m not. That feels like gameplay to me, even if the meaningful choice and the specific challenge it affects are not happening simultaneously.
Lookit Jack Donaghy here, setting us up for that third kind of heat.
I muse that safes usually come with a known maker, if you’ve opened a few of the same make you generally know how to, and they can be told apart with ease, but there’s no labeled maker of doors, there’s no: oh this is a bloody stupid Johnson door, its hinges revolve backwards and the handle needs to be pushed upwards. There’s no temperament and personality with doors, I don’t think, I mean maybe there’s better acoustics with some woods and thicknesses, humidity might be a factor (Steve the humid door), how well oiled the hinges are, it might stick, the repair of the lock itself. But none of those variables can reasonably be expected to lay as a foundation for player informed choices. Generally you know a door if you live there or if you’ve visited enough times.
Picking the lock might at least as a choice, ahem, close the door, on the possibillity of opening it with a key in the future, as the lockpick might snap. If there’s a padlock one might saw it off instead, but eh, I’m getting stuck on that metaphor again.
One thing to consider with locks and keys or really anything else the metaphor applies to is whether choice is perceptible to the players. You talked about different makes of safes for example. I can’t pick locks, and I’m sure that in real life there exist choices one could make in how to approach a given lock, but a given player can’t be expected to know that any more than I do, so the choice doesn’t really exist in a practical sense. With things like persuasion, everybody has at least a basic conceptual grasp of how it works. You want a thing, someone else wants a different thing, can you bring your desires into accord somehow. The player is aware that choices exist, even if they’re not particularly good at persuasion. Same thing with things like wilderness survival, everyone basically understands that they need food and water and what directions are and that being lost is a thing that happens, so even players who’ve never set foot in the woods have an intuitive understanding of the basic shape of gameplay that’s possible in that situation.
I feel like I said pretty much the jist of that, I said that none of those variables can reasonably be expected to lay as a foundation for player informed choices. For something to be considered a choice, you need a reason for wanting to perform the action in the first place, a drawback for failure, otherwise as mentioned there’s no reason not to try, and you need a minimum of relevant information to decide if it’s worth it or not. But, as I said, none of the variables (at least the ones that I mentioned) concerning the door itself can reasonably matter in the decision making process, since it’s all information that can’t and shouldn’t be expected to matter to the player.
A GM could note that this particular door gets easily stuck halfway because the floor is uneven or it’s just not a very well made door, or that the hinges creak, it’s not outside the realm of possibility, but it’s still kind of a screwjob if you unlock the door silently and then it creaks and alerts everyone anyways, because you didn’t mention oiling the hinges. You can’t reasonably be expected to know such a thing, unless rusty hinges were explicitly mentioned when the door was described, or if you’ve gone through the door before and it always creaks. However hinges might creak without being visibly rusty, you may have never gone through this door before, so how would you know? And if there’s only the one entrance to choose from, then it just boils down to lockpick/key/break/open (if it was never locked).
Basically you make choice upon choice upon choice even before reaching the door, but in spite of those myriads of choices, none of them really make lockpicking as a choice less appealing than breaking down the door straight away. Lockpicking isn’t a choice because it’s the best choice almost every time, barring external variables.
RE: Wilderness Survival. Plenty of people, even those who are avid hikers, fail the “what to do if we get lost” test to fatal results. Off-trail or cross-country hiking (or un-losing yourself) is at least as specialized as lockpicking. Hiking to the top of a mountain without a trail is a seriously daunting task and I don’t think most people would know where to begin except “go up” which will never be the quickest, easiest, or safest method. Definitely an example of the Hacking Problem.
My gut feeling would be that picking locks takes longer, while breaking a lock or door is louder.
You imply that ‘rules as written’ don’t say that. I felt like fact-checking that. So I got out my copies of the 3.5 Player’s Handbook and Dungeon Master’s Guide, and read the sections that seemed most relevant:
Player’s Handbook:
Listen (pages 78-79)
Open Lock (page 79)
Lock (page 126)
Sunder (page158)
Breaking and Entering (pages 165 to 167)
Dungeon Master’s Guide:
Doors (page 60-62)
Random Door Types (page 78)
Summary of relevant rules:
No rules for how much noise any of the relevant activities make. (While there are hints in the word choices, said hints are unsupported)
Each attempt at opening a lock takes a full-round action. The DC for opening a lock depends on the quality of the lock, opposed by the Open Lock (which can’t be used untrained) skill and modifiers thereof.
Each attempt at smashing an door or lock, takes an attack (usually a standard action), likely preceded by a full-round action to “line up” to bypass the attack roll. An object’s hardness is determined by the object’s substance, while the object’s hit points are determined by the object’s substance and width. If the would-be smasher does not “line up” the attack, the AC is determined by the object’s Size. (The other modifiers listed on page 165 are the same for all inanimate objects.)
Each attempt at breaking a door or lock (which in 3.5 is distinct from smashing an door or lock, though smashing is sometimes referred to as breaking) takes an unspecified sort of action of period or time. (In other words, the rules don’t say.) The DC depends “on the construction of the item”, opposed by a Strength Check.
All three allow for repeated attempts, with smashing an object allowing for partial success (in the form of hit point damage).
In all three cases, the chance of success depends.
Conclusion:
The goals of the 3.5 design team do not appear to include making picking lock take longer, nor making smashing/breaking a door or lock louder.
Just a minor corrections to your “fact check”…
DMG v.3.5 p.77 explicitly states that breaking a door is noisy and may attract a wandering monster, necessitating a random monster check.
I’ll concede on the “lockpicking isn’t that long” thing, though I will point out that I repeatedly stated how this was a general survey of the evolution of the mechanics and that they do vary from edition to edition. More importantly, though, I repeatedly say none of this is actually about locks, doors, or keys. It’s actually about the mechanical design that results in naked die rolls. Which, clearly, is what’s happening even im v. 3.5. So good catch on the lock picking, sorry you missed the explicit noisiness of breaking doors, but none of it changes what’s actually being discussed here. I really don’t understand why people can’t see past literal keys and locks.
I also want to add the Hollywood “one quick kick and you’re through” view of forcing open a stuck or locked door is why your gut tells you that smashing a door down is “quick but noisy.” Especially when considering modern, flimsy residential doors. It’s true that a fireman with an axe can get through a residential door in as little as 30 seconds, which, by the way, is six full rounds, but even police with hand-held battering rams report that it can take fifteen to twenty blows before a door gives. The sorts of doors characters encounter in fantasy adventure games are even more solid. Solid wood planks with crossbraces of more wood or iron, thick iron hinge pins, bolts, and wooden or metal bars. Breaking a door by applying enough direct force to get the jamb, bolt, bar, frame, or hinges to fail isn’t a quick “one blow and through” kind of thing. Attacking a door and doing damage to it, as a firefighter with an axe, takes a full six rounds. Breaking a door with sudden force, as a policeman with a ram, can take fifteen to twenty blows. So, no, breaking a door should not be quick but noisy. It should be protracted, noisy, and risk injury.
Didn’t I do a rant about this? I swear I published a whole rant about how people are stupid about doors.
You did, and if I had put any thought at all into that gut feeling I might have remembered it.
Thank for correcting the errors in my “fact check”. I am quite embarrassed at not including ‘Wandering Monsters (page 77)’ on my to-read list.
As you point out, I responded to something peripheral to your point, and only to its implications for one edition of the game in question. I should have made it clearer that that was what I was doing. My apologies.
Can someone help me out here and explain how the two statements, “If there is any way to demand a proper action declaration in which the approach impacts the outcome somehow, do that.” and “Don’t ever let your players roll naked Persuasion rolls and modify their roll based on their approach” aren’t direct contradictions of each other ?
Proper action declarations are different from naked die rolls.
They are not always, though. “I attempt to open the door by picking the lock,” is both a proper action declaration and a naked die roll.
My apologies. I must have misconstrued what you wrote on the subject.
It may be my piss-poor punctuation and phrasing that’s bothering you.
1. If there is any way to demand a proper action declaration in which the approach impacts the outcome somehow, do that.
2. Don’t ever let your players roll naked Persuasion rolls, and always modify their Persuasion rolls based on their stated approaches.