It’s been a hell of a week. Well, last week was a hell of a week. Some personal s$&% segued beautifully into a medical issue that I had to waste several days resolving and which knocked me right the f$&% out for several more. But I’m not just b$&%ing about my life. This is relevant.
See, the only reason I read the e-mail I did—an Ask Angry question—was because I was sitting miserable and bored in a doctor’s waiting room. Otherwise, I’d have just deleted the f$&%ing thing. And I absolutely shouldn’t answer it. But I’m going to. Because I ended up thinking way too long about it. And actually feeling bad for the person that sent it. But I’ll explain all that below.
Incidentally, if you want me to answer one of your questions in a future Ask Angry article, send it to ask.angry@angry.games. But, make sure you don’t make the same mistakes today’s questioner made. Don’t be a dingus.
Some dingus asks…
Wait.
Before I get to the question, I have to do the disclaimer thing. As I said above, I should never have read this question. And I shouldn’t be answering it. Let me explain.
I like doing the whole Ask Angry thing. It’s fun. It lets me write about topics I otherwise wouldn’t. Either because I’d never think of them or because I’d never get a whole article out of them. It’s also a fun challenge to write about s$&% I didn’t come up with. And it lets me interact with the community.
But the Ask Angry columns are also a useful time-management tool. Because they don’t require a whole lot of brainstorming, outlining, research, and design work. Even seemingly simple hacks—like the companion thing and the town map thing—even simple hacks take a lot of f$&%ing work. And I’ve got one minor and two major systems, an RPG, and a module all going in the background right now. And when a bunch of other bulls$&%—like personal emergencies and major infections and dental surgeries—come up, it’s great to have some quick content I can put out.
Now, I only let myself do one of these Ask Angry things a month. And I don’t decide in advance when I’m going to do them. Usually, they happen because I realized I’m f$&%ed in terms of time and plans and need to lighten the load. I slot them in when I have to. And then I go through my stack of questions and pick a few out.
It might seem like I just pick questions at random. Or just pick the most recent questions in the inbox. But I actually put a lot more f$&%ing thought into these columns than that. I get a lot of questions. And there’s a lot of criteria I use to decide which ones I’m actually going to dignify with an answer. Obviously, I pick questions that’ll be interesting for me to answer, but I also try to pick ones whose answers will be interesting to read. No s$&%, right? But there’s more to it than that. I actually answer questions here and there that I don’t find particularly interesting just because I know they involve a common issue that a lot of people can identify with. I look for layered questions, too. Ones where there’s an underlying issue hidden inside a fairly simple question. And I look for…
Look, it’s not important. There’s a lot of s$&% I look for, okay? And I can’t even explain it all. I don’t even know all the things I’m looking for. I follow my gut. But I do know that I also try to choose a variety of questions. I try to mix them up. When I pick three to five questions for an Ask Angry column, I make sure they’re different enough so that each will appeal to a different kind of reader. But I also make sure the questions aren’t too different. I’m always looking for questions that have some kind of common theme or through-line. Or even questions that’ll let me include a few callbacks in the column. That way, it’ll look more like a single column than a bunch of random essays.
So, picking questions for an Ask Angry column is a lot more complicated than you probably thought. No one ever gives me enough f$&%ing credit for what I do. And I’m always picking them out on a tight deadline. And that is why I’m always asking you f$&%ers to be brief. I get a crap-ton of questions every month and I need to troll them very quickly to pick out the good ones. And lately, the questions keep getting longer and longer.
Thing is, I know that’s my f$&%ing fault. Because I keep answering long questions. I rip into the schlub who sent the long question for one paragraph, sure, but that’s just the price for my advice anyway. People are already willing to take a lot of abuse just to hear my brilliant take on their dumb-a$& pretend-elf-game problem, so what’s a little more? And today’s column isn’t helping my case. Because the schlub who sent this question—who I have to call Dingus because he’s a world-class failure at following simple instructions and didn’t give me permission to call him by name—the schlub who sent me this question driveled on for-f$&%ing-ever.
The only reason I read the damned thing is that I was stuck in a doctor’s office and I was trying to distract myself from excruciating pain and because I knew I’d have to do an Ask Angry column this week. And because of my miserable, drug-addled state, I actually felt a pang of sympathy for what I read. Because I saw what Dingus was really struggling with. And why he’d written such a long-a$& question. And I know he’s not the only GM struggling with it.
But—and this is a big-a$&, capital B, boldfaced but—But this is the end of this s$&%. I’m not making fun of long-a$& questions anymore and then answering them anyway. From now, I’m putting on the boxing gloves before I check the Ask Angry inbox. And when I see a question I can’t assess—that I can’t even take in—at a single f$&%ing glance, I’mma shout “DELETED” and slam the button.
Okay? Are we clear? This is the last f$&%ing time.
Now.
Dingus asks…
…a question that is way too f$&%ing long for me to reproduce. So I’m going to summarize. And even the summary will be too f$&%ing long.
While playing Curse of Strahd, Dingus the GM’s players pissed off some NPCs, so the NPCs hired a changeling infiltrator to sabotage the party. The changeling disguised himself as an acquaintance and played hurt. While the party’s artificer was checking on him, the changeling pickpocketed the artificer’s gun from its holster and made an excuse to leave before anyone noticed. A few minutes later, when trouble broke out, the artificer went to draw his gun and ended up with nothing instead. And the artificer’s player was pissed off. After the players worked out what had happened, the player accused Dingus the GM of not playing fair. He even accused Dingus of lying to him. That is to say the player accused the GM of purposely presenting an enemy as an ally to intentionally screw the party.
Now, the angry player was fairly inexperienced. Another more experienced player came to Dingus the GM’s defense and said that sort of s$&% happens in D&D. It’s part of the game. But the player was not assuaged. Moreover, Dingus the GM explained to me in exhaustive detail how he’d resolved the situation mechanically with Passive Insight scores and Passive Perception scores and Sleight of Hand checks and Deception checks and all that s$&%. I’m not going to go into the whole explanation here, though I will mention some relevant details later. Just trust me when I say that Dingus the GM handled the whole situation with the scrupulous fairness of a board-certified, licensed game master who knew he’d be audited and wanted to really cover his a$&.
But all of that was just the f$%&ing setup. Because Dingus’ actual question was this, which I will quote:
How should a [GM] run an interaction between PCs and a character who is an expert at deception and infiltration? Is there something I could have done more fairly?
Let me start, Dingus, by addressing your direct question directly. You should run an interaction between infiltrators and PCs pretty much exactly the way you ran it. And while I wasn’t actually at the table and have to take everything you’re saying on faith, if everything you’ve said is true, there is very little you could have done to be fairer. In fact, I hereby award you The Angry GM Award for Scrupulous Over-Fairness in Role-Playing Gaming.
Yes, I said over-fairness. I’ll get to that. But don’t worry too much. Because an award for fairness in RPGs is completely useless and you’re still screwed.
Now, let’s look at the bigger picture and the underlying issues.
First, Dingus, you made some mistakes. Some big f$&%ing mistakes. And they’re probably obvious to even my most casual readers. First, artificer. Second, gun. Third, changeling. Holy mother of f$&%. Did you just slam the entire grab-bag of Eberroni spellpunk bulls$&% into your Curse of Strahd game? Are you using f$&%ing psionics too? Did you replace the Sunsword with a lightsaber? Did the game start with the players getting off the magic choo-choo train in Barovia and sending a message back to their boss at Exeter by way of gnomish telegraph?
I mean, you don’t need my permission to run your game any wrong way you want, but I’m really tempted to just leave you twisting for all that s$&%.
But none of those mistakes are relevant to the issue at hand. Which has nothing to do with fairness incidentally. It has to do with a struggle GMs have been struggling with since GMing was invented. And your reliance on fairness is part of the struggle. And while I’m happy to help you resolve the struggle, I will not f$&%ing enable your self-confidence issues.
Look, I’ve gotten e-mails like this before. There’s a reason you—and many others—ask questions like this. The way you do. The way we do. Because, look, I’ve asked questions like this this way too. Of course, that was a long time ago. Before there was an internet. But we had magazines. And game store owners were expected to be GMing experts. But that’s neither here nor there.
The thing is, you could have just asked me “how should GMs handle interactions with deceptive NPCs fairly?” But that’s not what you wanted to hear. You wanted to hear my take on the situation itself. You wanted me to pass judgment on what you did at your game table. Which is pretty common, actually. And there’s two kinds of GMs who do that. There’s GMs who know they’re right and want to hear it from someone else. And there’s GMs who think they’re wrong and want someone to tell them how not to be wrong next time. Validation or absolution. That’s what you’re looking for. But that’s what everyone’s looking for. Even me.
Okay, I’m hyperbolically oversimplifying to make a point. But not by as much as you think and the sooner you admit it, the happier you’ll be as a GM. Here’s the problem. You’ve got some faulty assumptions built into your question. First, you’re assuming that if a player’s pissed off, you did something wrong. Second, you’re assuming that if a player’s pissed off, fairness will fix it.
Let me prove, first, that this isn’t about fairness. Because you weren’t fair. You shot past fair. You told me you used two Sleight of Hand checks to resolve the changeling’s gun theft. One to “unsnap the holster” and one to actually take the gun. Remember that? That wasn’t correct. And it wasn’t fair. Let me explain.
I’m going to put aside the fact that snap fasteners are anachronistic as hell. They weren’t invented until the 1880s and didn’t become popular until the 1900s. And retention holsters—holsters designed to keep someone from grabbing your gun and shooting you in the face with it—are way more modern than that. And they only make sense for someone who’s carrying a gun they never want to have to use. Someone—like a law enforcement officer—who expects to get into physical altercations with someone they don’t actually want to shoot dead. A vampire-hunting adventurer in a pre-modern, fantasy world of brutal violence wouldn’t wear such a holster. When that sort of person ends up in a fight, they fight to kill. And every second counts. If a gunslinger adventurer ends up in a close-quarters fight with someone and doesn’t already have their gun drawn, they f$&%ed up and they’re probably dead.
But that’s just me spouting realism nonsense.
Here’s the real reason why that’s not correct. It’s not correct because you used two die rolls to resolve one action. Sleight of Hand’s primary functions include planting things on people and taking things off people. Without their knowledge. And that’s almost always going to involve manipulating the person’s clothes and gear without them knowing. Based on your precedent, every common use of Sleight of Hand now requires two die rolls. Which makes it less likely to succeed than any other skill. You nerfed the skill. Nice job breaking it, Dingus.
Beyond that, though, there is nothing in the game’s rules that suggests you should ever use two action checks to resolve the same, single action. And, hell, it also breaks one of the cardinal rules I laid down years ago about adjudicating actions. One roll’s always enough. And I stand by that.
Here’s what I think happened inside your cranium. Consciously or otherwise. The players found the changeling playing hurt and you rolled a Deception check. It didn’t overcome the artificer’s Passive Insight so the performance fooled the artificer. When the artificer got close, you rolled the Sleight of Hand check and beat the PC’s Passive Perception score. And then you felt a twinge in your GM brain. You realized the changeling was totally going to pull it off and no one would notice. The infiltrator’s plan was going to work. And that didn’t sit right with you. So, you told your GM brain, “okay, that roll was just to, uh, unsnap the holster. This is the one that really counts.” And then you rolled another Sleight of Hand check. And you secretly hoped that second roll would fail. But it didn’t.
Sound about right? If it doesn’t, you have no way to correct the record. But if it does, you ain’t alone. Every GM in the history of gaming has done the same thing at least once. At least every GM who’s not an a$&hole. And I know for certain there’s at least one GM who is an a$&hole who’s done it too.
And I’m also pretty sure the reason you phrased your question the way you did is because you still feel guilty about the whole thing. That’s why you know you did something wrong, isn’t it?
Every GM’s had that brain twinge. Usually when the stakes are high or the outcome’s really going to f$&% the players over. Taking a PC’s primary weapon is pretty big. Even if it’s not valuable or magical. It can feel like a violation. And D&D’s a combat game. If you don’t have a weapon—or spell focus or spellbook or holy symbol—you’re naked in a hostile world.
By the way, I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with taking weapons away. I’m totally okay with it. But it’s also a high-stakes thing to do and most GMs know it.
The twinges get even worse when all the resolution’s happening behind the screen. When you can’t show your work. If the gun actually got stolen, all the artificer would know is that you, the GM, made his gun disappear. He might never even figure out where it went. It’s just “your gun’s gone, surprise!”
Point is, you probably knew that it was going to be a s$&%y situation. And so you took extra steps to assure yourself that you were actually being super-duper-ultra-fair. To the point where you were being unfair in the players’ favor. Just so you could tell your players—or yourself—that you were being totally fair after they discovered the surprise screwjob.
Turns out, though, fairness isn’t the shield you hoped it would be. Your player still thinks you were unfair. And so do you.
When a player takes issue with something you’ve done, you absolutely should take a good, hard look at the situation and figure out if the player’s got a point. Think about what you did and why you did it and if you’d do it again the same way. And sometimes you’ll realize that you did do something wrong. But a lot of the time—and this is something lots of GMs have trouble recognizing—lots of times, you won’t be able to see anything you could have done differently. And if you’re totally honest with yourself, you’ll also realize you don’t feel like you should have handled it differently.
Now, there’s nothing wrong with seeking the opinion of someone smarter and wiser and more charismatic and more handsome than you. But you’ve also got to be able to own your own decisions. To say, “I feel good about the way I handled this; the player is wrong.” It looks like you’re having trouble with that from the tone of your e-mail. You’ve got a lot of doubts. You’re biased against yourself.
Of course, it’s hard to think you did right when you have an angry player. Logically, if a player feels like a victim, something wasn’t fair, right? Except people get angry for all sorts of reasons. And none of them are rational. Anger’s an emotion, not a reason. Trust me. I know anger. When people play games, they get mad sometimes. They get frustrated. In this case, your player lost. Your players did a bunch of stuff to piss off the world. The world hit them back and landed a good, solid blow. One that really hurt. And that’s what RPGs are all about. That’s how they work. Which your other player outright said in your defense.
Problem is, it sucks to lose. And it sucks hard when we deserve to lose. Losing because of random chance sucks, but it’s impersonal. Losing because you f$&$ed up? That’s all about you and how you suck. And no one likes getting called on their suckage.
It takes a measure of maturity to handle losing with grace. When I was a kid, a long f$&%ing time ago, they taught us this thing in school called sportsmanship. This was back when games had winners and losers. Kids were taught—in f$&%ing kindergarten, no less—to handle both winning and losing without being a$&holes about it. When you won, you acted with humility and compassion for the losers because losing sucks and there’s no need to rub it in. And when you lost, you weren’t a whiny, bitter little b$&% about it. You accepted you’d earned the loss and tried to do better next time.
I’m guessing your player got mad because he lost. I can’t prove it. I don’t have psionic powers. But I’m guessing that’s what happened. And I’m basing that on the fact that he got mad at you. He blamed you for screwing him. He didn’t blame the situation, he didn’t blame the dice, he blamed you. He personalized it. And that’s one of the major components of anger. To get truly angry, it’s not enough to get hurt. You have to feel like the hurt was wrong or unjust and that it was done deliberately or knowingly.
That’s why I emphasized the player’s specific accusations against you. He wasn’t just annoyed by a bad or unfair situation, he blamed you. He said you’d deliberately misled him so that his character would be screwed. That’s a very serious accusation. The player’s accusing you of cheating. And of acting with malice. He’s not just saying you resolved the situation unfairly, he’s saying you set out to screw him and used your position as a GM to do so.
Believe it or not, I’m actually capable of sympathy. I wouldn’t be answering your giant-a$&, overlong e-mail if I didn’t sympathize with you. And I wouldn’t have said that losing a primary weapon is a painful, scary violation if I was incapable of seeing things from a player’s point of view. But if a player leveled those accusations at me, the game would have stopped dead right there and we would have gone off—the player and I—to have a private conversation. And the topic of said conversation would have been “will the player ever play at my table again?”
Now, I know I’m going to catch some flak for that s$&%. People lose their f$&%ing minds whenever I suggest these sorts of no-nonsense, my-way-or-the-highway positions. I’m not making that statement lightly. It’s not about kicking out a player for disagreeing with you. It’s not about kicking out a player at all. It’s about the fact that the player-GM relationship is broken and if it can’t be fixed, it can’t continue.
Look, maybe your player really believes what he said. Maybe he wasn’t just lashing out in anger. Maybe he really thinks you set out to screw him and broke the rules to do so. And he might even have some good reasons to think that. Reasons you could talk about like adults. But, as long as the player believes that s$&%, he doesn’t trust you to referee the game fairly. And until he trusts you again, everything that goes against the player is going to reinforce his belief that you’re out to f$&% him over. The game can’t go on like that.
But it’s possible that the player doesn’t actually really think what he said was true. Again, I know anger. And when you get angry, the classic response is to attack whatever’s making you angry. He might have been lashing out because things didn’t go his way. Maybe he had a bad day. Or maybe he’s a sore loser. Maybe he missed sportsmanship day in school. But now you’ve got a bomb sitting at your table. Someone who’s shown they’re willing to explode whenever something goes wrong. The game can’t go on like that.
See why I said the Angry GM Award for Scrupulous Fairness in Gaming doesn’t matter? Because this ain’t about fairness. There’s something else going on here. There’s always something else going on. Because being a GM isn’t just about running games, it’s also about managing human beings. And human emotions. Then again, everything we do with other human beings is about managing human emotions. Our own and other peoples’.
You’re the de facto leader of a group of irrational and emotional human beings—and that includes you—who’ve decided to partake of a particular group activity in the hopes of having a collective good time. When a problem arises between the irrational and emotional human beings, no one can have a good time until it’s resolved. And, as the de facto leader, the buck stops with you.
You’ve got a player who either doesn’t trust you as a referee or who throws tantrums when he loses. Or who has some other problem that manifests itself as angry outbursts and unfair accusations. That’s the problem you’ve got to solve. And I can’t tell you how to solve it. All I can tell you is “this is the sucky part of being a GM.” Oh, and I can tell you not to ignore this. It’s very serious.
The only thing you can do is sit down with the player and try to hash it out. And if you can’t hash it out, you may have to continue without the player. Or give up your GMing screen. Or you can ignore it until it destroys the game for everyone.
The fairness issue is secondary. And maybe it really is an issue. Maybe the guy really does have the wrong idea about D&D. Or he thinks you do. If he really feels wronged, that’s something you can resolve. But only after you get your own head on straight enough to believe you handled things right. Start by looking yourself in the mirror and telling yourself that you handled things the best way you could have. That you wouldn’t do anything different. Unless, of course, there’s something you would change.
GMs struggle with this s$&% a lot. And when interpersonal issues arise, most GMs are like “well, I didn’t sign up for this s$&%!” Because no one ever talks about this side of GMing. Which is why GMs think if they just write good adventures and run them fairly, they’re doing everything right and everyone will be happy. That’s just not the way it is.
Everyone’s got different values and priorities and perspectives. Everyone wants different things out of their games. And everyone’s an irrational, emotional, unreasonable mess. The GM’s job is to assemble a group of people who can have fun gaming together despite all of that crap. And despite being irrational, emotional, unreasonable messes themselves. Sometimes, that job entails fixing your players enough so that everyone can game happily together. Sometimes, it involves replacing intolerably broken players with players who are broken in more tolerable ways. And if you don’t like that part of the job, well, you quit running games. Because it’ll always fall to you.
Were you fair? Yeah. Probably. I think so. Congratulations on the award. But you’ve still got an angry player who doesn’t trust you. And you really need to fix that.
One way or another.
The type of players to lash out like that also tend to be the type of players who tend to see attacks against their character as attacks against them personally. Now of course GMs can do that and for all we know this gm did that but let’s assume his story is true with as little bias as possible.
On a side note I got worried for second that I sent a bad question because I’ve sent on recently, but then I remembered I had nothing about fairness in it and my questions wasn’t long.
I have a useful rule-of-thumb for GMs thinking about trying a deception: e.g. introducing a Doppleganger into the party.
To make sure that I have the correct mindset to fairly adjudicate the encounter: I do the following.
There is a chance that the players will spot the imposter and give chase/set fire to/axe murder it. *I imagine this discovery scene playing out*.
Did I rejoice in the players relief and increase in self-worth as they spotted the deception?
Did I enjoy the dramatic moment as Festus the Dwarf spotted the anomalous shadow of the stranger? Did I like to visualise the doppleganger accidentally revealing its true form in a mirror? Or flinching as it unwittingly touched a silver utensil?
If so: good. I can safely run the deception. I’m taking as much pleasure in the possibility of the players spotting the intruder as I am in the possibility of stealing the party’s AnachroGun ™.
But if I didn’t like to think about the Doppleganger failing – if I regarded that as losing: then it’s best not to run the deception. I’m invested in one result – this is going to color my adjudication.
I agree. My approach is similar, with an additional side note that I would like to add.
I would also try to imagine how the scene does play out if the deception is *not* spotted, and the Doppelganger is completely successful. And I would ask myself: am I satisfied with that outcome? Am I comfortable with inserting in my game the consequences of that outcome? If the answer is no, then it is best not to run the deception.
Generally speaking, it is better to avoid to put PCs in a success-or-failure situation, unless you are OK with the success outcome and you are OK with the failure outcome too. I quite believe that Angry himself made this kind of statement in the past.
This is something I was thinking about, but in inverse: Dingus here didn’t like the idea of the doppelganger just outright ‘winning’. He went overboard with fair.
I dare say that if you’re that unsure of how your players will react, then you just shouldn’t do it. Fairness is all nice and all but at the end of the day, you, the GM, decided to go ahead with it. You saw the 1 in 10 chance and said “That’s no good”. But you didn’t get rid of it. You tweaked it. You made it a 1 in 50 and accepted it. You let it happen.
Should you never screw with your players? Well, if you’re not sure you’ll be able to manage any backlash coming from them, then don’t screw with them. It’s not worth it. It’s just a game gimmick that may wreck your table, and that’s not worth it.
First, remember that Dingus’ motives and the result are my guess. I said so clearly. I admitted I was guessing about his mindset and that he couldn’t set the record straight.
Second, I don’t agree that if you’re unsure how your players will react, you shouldn’t do it. A GM has to be willing to risk upsetting his players from time to time. And frustration is sometimes a part of a game. That’s why what GMs really need to do is learn how to talk to their players and deal with their frustrations. And why players have to learn how to deal with setbacks and things they can’t control with grace and maturity. It’s the price of admission. And the players who can’t don’t belong at an RPG table. That said, the middle ground is a BIG damned place with lots of room between “never upset your players” and “screw with your players.” There is no right spot in the middle. Just right spots. Everyone has to choose their own. And looking for rules of thumb all people can always follow won’t get you there.
There is a single element of the story that I personally think could have been handled better by the GM.
Maybe, instead of having the player discover their gun was gone “when trouble broke out”, it could have been better to make them notice at a slightly earlier time.
At that time the thief would have been gone already, but the consequences of the theft might have felt less like a “screwjob”.
Still, I wouldn’t go as far as to say the GM did something wrong.
Whereas Angry normally intercepts during or anticipates my GM-needs, this time he is too late.
I had this problem a while back. It was easy to blame the other person. I didn’t think it was a big deal, everyone else thought he was overreacting and being spiteful.
But I didn’t do anything to fix it. The actual problem, that is. The trust being broken, the illusion shattered. Maybe at that moment things could’ve been talked out, perhaps even mended. Though, I should’ve grown the spine to toss them out when they stopped being sassy and started being actively destructive, minor as it was.
I was wrong to let them wallow in anger and waste time. Last I heard they plan to quit RPGs altogether, and it’s hard not to feel responsible. They could’ve spent those weeks having fun in a game that wasn’t ruined for them.
I like to think I’ve become ‘better’. But I wasn’t ‘better’ enough to handle this well and see the problem for what it was. And now that I understand it a bit better, I can only hope to avoid it in the future. Not all problems are sore thumbs, and not all problems can be solved with reason and fairness.
Though I understand it’s not the main point of the article I’d like to note that this is a real cost to using passive perception. If you had the player in question roll a perception check then there would be some setup in their mind afterwards. They’d get to the fight, try to draw their gun, and then they or someone else at the table would bring up the failed perception check from before and they’d feel less screwed over. They might never even find out what really happened, but they would at least know something went wrong, as opposed to simply not having a gun with no game explanation.
I think you’re onto something here, and it’s about two things: player agency and proper worldbuilding. If you do everything by passive perception, then the players don’t get to roll dice, and they don’t feel like they’re in charge of their destiny. That’s when they get mad.
Likewise, if some guy steals a party member’s magical weapon out of nowhere, that’s a screwjob. But if you mention the extensive magical weapons black market in the town, and comment on how many scruffy pickpocket beggar children are prowling the marketplace, then it’s on the party when they decide to trust someone they don’t know.
Rolling dice to avoid screwjobs doesn’t actually increase agency in the long run. It’ll lessen the impact of such situations, but players who are inclined to view setbacks negatively will still view them negatively. Whether you use a passive Perception score or actively roll Perception, there’s still nothing you-as a player-can do to change the odds or affect the outcome. It’s the same as a saving throw. Roll to not be screwed doesn’t reduce the feeling of screwjobs.
Trust and maturity are vital at the game table. Taking a shortcut won’t get you that.
The key thing with “passive perception vs rolling” is that neither is a meaningful choice. They’re just the % chance of whatever else is happening to fail.
Hell, if anything, some players will criticise you for forcing them to roll and them getting a low result. It’s just rubbing in their faces how something bad’s happening.
Hrm, I have been a player in my group under two GMs each of whom handle these things differently.
The first GM would roll behond the screen against a passive score – we could see him doing it, making a note, and a quiet little “hm” and that did mean we knew something /might/ be going down. However, it was a passive roll and we would frequently find ourselves in those awkwards positions. “Gasp! My gun is missing!” is exactly the sort of thing. And it was awesome. I even lost my character to such a gotcha and I was not mad in the slightest (although my party who singularly failed to make efforts to stop me bleeding out are another matter!!)
My other GM always has us roll an active perception check without explanation (and I used to do this too, as a GM – thinking that it would give players more sense of engagement) but I have to admit that I have been far saltier about all those situations – even though they are usually not as drastic.
Now, to be totally up front, I am not sure how much of it is a result of the type of check vs the system being played vs the frequency with which this GM loves to carry out these sort of gotchas. GM1 they were rare moments of dramatic tension. I have lost count with GM2 of the number of gotchas we have been subjected to.
So, I suppose my conclusion is that whilst I used to agree with this stance I now think that a passive check is a delicious experience as a player but is best used in moderation for impact and a fun time for all.
Some player perspective:
I was (am?) this kind of player. I’m a sore loser, plain and simple.
Whenever I get the (subjective) impression the GM doesn’t want us to succeed, I get intensely frustrated.
Which is a problem because my feeling of “fairness” is on a hair-trigger sometimes and challenges, even unexpected ones, are part of both the “game” and “story” part of RPGs.
With time, I’ve learned to recognize the signs, keep myself in check and keep on trucking through the encounter/evening. Once I’ve seen how it all turned out in the end and slept on it for a few days, I sometimes come to even like how it all went down. And if not, I try to distill it down into actual constructive advice, salt it with “the other players might see it differently” and offer it to the GM in a private conversation.
But it took time and time on the other side, behind the GM screen, to get there.
My overall point is: As a habitual sore loser, I second Angry’s advice.
Offering challenges, even surprising ones, is part of the game. There’s no “secret technique” for finetuning those so they never, ever cross even one players subjective threshold between “challenging” and “unfair” without watering down the game to easy mode.
But do talk to the player and clear the air. Restore trust or your game will suffer for it.
That took a lot of strength to talk about. Thank you for adding your perspective. And, while I am not a sore loser, I do have an anger management problem that helps me recognize the signs of anger in others. It’s not something I like to talk about, even though I’m sure few of my readers would be surprised. So, I recognize how difficult it is to publicly out yourself as having a behavior you’ve worked to get under control. Keep it up.
Having played with the same player (who suffers from a phobia of RNG) for years, I’ve worked to reduce frustrations on him as much as possible. I used to do this “but the dice were fair!” approach until I realized, thanks to your “kill your beauties” article, that it’s all my choice in the end. If there’s a 1 in 1000 chance that his char instantly dies, I roll it and he dies, I can’t blame the dice. I can’t justify it with probability. Because the end result is that his PC is frickin’ dead. If anything, it’s even more insulting.
The main advice I can give is, think of your “chance of a screw-up” scenarios as “this screw-up is going to happen yes or yes”. If you don’t like that outcome, don’t roll. Don’t do it. Ignore it. It’s not worth it. Do something you can handle, you don’t need this gimmick.
There’s a lot of things you can do without rolling, too. Stuff that is only thrown into the narrative side and thus doesn’t ‘fault’ the player for not investing in Will saves or something. Minimize your rolls.
Objection to the “without rolling…Stuff that is only thrown into the narrative side and thus doesn’t ‘fault’ the player for not investing in Will saves” part. As a player my reaction to being pickpocketed or something like that is “what should I do for that to not happen?”. I do have some problems with trusting the GM (the reason I usually run the game myself), and I want confidence that I had a decision. It could have been at character creation.
Getting, say, low WIS high DEX character in 5e is a decision – to be able to dodge attacks and scale walls in exchange for not paying attention to potentially important surrounding detail. That’s me picking what kind of bad things will happen to me and what won’t.
And, although I think D&D’s core mechanic is too random, it’s still a reassuring mechanical proof that my choice of bad things is respected. That’s the whole reason the game has character stats at all.
I don’t find chargen and stats to be that much of a decision in this case. People design characters in very different ways. Some want to play a certain build. Others want to recreate a certain idea, or are gaming the game.
If you have a big “save or suck” mechanic that hangs off one of the less used stats, then you’re bound to screw up at least half of the playerbase. People don’t want to be told “You didn’t invest in Perception, suck on this!”. They want “You didn’t invest in Perception, what do you do?”.
Those are quite interchangable in a TTRPG. Especially for more passive things, like Perception or Constitution and HP in general. There are a lot more things that hurt you much more then everyone else, so preparing protections and contingency plans is the “what do you do?” part, and so is getting out of sucky situations.
“Combat breaks out and you don’t have your weapon” can be a great moment for creative decisions, because improvised weapons exist, and you hopefully have class abilities not relying on that stolen weapon, and D&D PCs are still superhumans. That does break pattern of same attack on every turn.
Also, why do you only have one gun? Can it have a little bell on it for it to be harder to steal? Maybe some sort of a lock? Maybe something else? That’s your personal challenge.
Also, I want to point out that it’s part of every single good reason people design characters. Minmaxing is the act of choosing which part you need the least, and it’s way more interesting if there’s no useless stats. And if I want to play a physically weak wizard, not being able to pull myself up a ledge or having to fear grappling enemies are as much a part of my character as all the knowledge and magic.
I agree with you. St. W. I think maybe the other side of this discussion comes from players that are more “beer and pretzels” style, as Angry would put it. They’re not as interested in character flaws and story beats as they are beating the bad guy and earning more gold. That kind of player would see a TTRPG less like an epic fantasy book series and more like a typical FPS video game. They don’t care as much about the strong silent hero behind the armor as they do about watching enemies explode into gore when they shoot them. In Lord of the Rings, a character losing a weapon would be an interesting plot and character moment, but in Halo, if the game told you Master Chief failed to notice the alien stealing his gun, you’d be annoyed, because shooting that gun is what the game is about. I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m belittling that style of play. It’s not my thing, (in TTRPGs) but there’s nothing inherently wrong with it.
If you haven’t moved on, JackTheRedCreeper, I’d love to hear your thoughts on this.
This is not “beer and pretzels” play. But there are different engagements at work.
Back in the days of AD&D (first edition) I had a tobacco-spitting player moan to me after a game, “Are you ever going to PLAY BY THE RULES?” I thought I did play by the rules, since I was the DM and could pick and choose and alter rules all I wanted. But I was also inexperienced and insecure, and I set on a quest to apply all the rules impartially, to prove to the players my own fairness. What a mistake. It helped me grow, later, when I realized that no matter how religiously I applied Weapon vs. Armor Class tables, Overbear/Pummel/Grapple rules, or obscure Speed Factor and Initiative interactions, that particular player was going to scoff and belittle me. People lash out when they feel hurt, and in the imaginary world of RPG, people get hurt over trifles as if you’d actually pummeled/overborn/grappled them. We all do. Players mature enough to persist at RPG gaming pull themselves together before they ruin their relationships and destroy the game. I’ve been in Dingus’s shoes. I’ve been in the player’s shoes. Dingus did good. I can’t put it better than Angry.
@JoQsh I don’t run a beer and pretzels game, it’s just that my player is a spectator type and thus doesn’t take decision taking too well, which means that anything that has a long-term impact is out of his scope. We play mostly story-focused, and gameplay is pretty simplistic. This doesn’t stop me from doing fun beats like sabotages and other twists. The trick is to make them part of the story and focus on them, rather than having them passively screw us up.
The problem with Dingus’ case is that he ran his encounter like a trap. And we know traps suck. There’s also the problem where a player losing their weapon is a big thing. It has the strength of a plot hook, and boiling it down to a trap is disonant.
In defense of Dingus, there’s also the issue I mentioned of “woops, you didn’t invest in X, time to suck”. He tried to solve it with fairness. But that’s not the way to deal with this. How do we avoid traps from screwing up anyone who isn’t a Rogue with Evasion? By using the “Click!” rule. We give players one final, narrative decision they can take and make. A decision that wasn’t taken 5 sessions ago and that doesn’t pay off 5 sessions later.
And then there’s the case of Dingus just not wanting the infiltrator to win. Which is silly. If you add any sort of chance of something going wrong, then your intention is for that something to go wrong. Else, you don’t roll. You don’t add that possibility. End.
Consider this instead: Player fails his rolls, and you say “The doppelganger has his hand on your gun, clearly trying to steal it. What do you do?”. It gives the player that moment of creativity. He doesn’t have any guarantees of winning, and he can do things he’s more capable of than having to rely on a stat. If he fails, it’s more tension-filled and interesting than just saying “Ah yeah your weapon doesn’t exist”. Cause, after all, losing your weapon can be a big, tenseful scenario, and not resolving that tension can be terrible, specially for any player who is not used to a game with higher stakes.
I see what you mean about the spectator type – that makes sense. (And I think that’s why Angry said to me that it’s not beer and pretzels play – the distaste for this can come from other places, as well) Thanks for the reply!
I agree that loss of a weapon carries a lot of weight and could be a plot hook in its own right. In that sense, I think even the beer and pretzels player I was thinking of could enjoy it, as long as the next section of the game is designed to be about dealing with not having a weapon – maybe a stealth challenge that leads to getting the weapon back.
I’m not sure how I feel about the “unfairness” of not letting the Doppleganger steal the gun flat-out with a successful slight of hand check, but I agree that it would be more fun for the player. (And it’s not like an NPC is going to complain to you about it) It’s not “by the book,” but I’m not necessarily opposed to it.