Do you dream of a day when I make fun of your stupid question in one of these monthly Ask Angry columns? Fine. Send me your question. But if you want to see it answered, you’ve got to send it right.
First, you’ve got to explicitly and clearly tell me what to call you so I know I have permission to use your name, nickname, gnome duh plume, or whatever.
Second, keep it brief. If I take one look at the e-mail and think “there is no f$&%ing way I’m reading all of that,” I’m not going to. And if I don’t read it, I can’t answer it.
Remember, I’m a pretty smart guy. I can answer most questions without paragraphs of context or background and I sure as s$&% don’t need to hear any tedious play-by-play from your dumb game session.
Also, if you send me an e-mail, that means that I, ipso facto, have your e-mail address. If I need to follow up or ask a clarifying question, I totally can. I won’t. But I can.
If you have the minimal brainpower necessary to follow those simple guidelines, send your question to ask.angry@angry.games. Otherwise, keep it to yourself. Even deleting e-mails wastes my precious time.
Daniel asks…
If a player separated from the party and overcame an encounter by themselves, would you consider only giving the encounter’s XP to that player’s character instead of spreading it amongst the party? For example…
See? This is precisely what I mean. I can actually answer that question without the next paragraph of bulls$&%. But I get you. You probably think this is a crazy question, Daniel, because individual experience awards and—gasp—splitting the party are both f$&%ing unthinkable these days. But, once upon a time, that s$&% was de rigueur. I mean, all XP used to be individual XP. If the party split up, only those on camera for a given encounter got XP for it. Crazier still, classes had different advancement tables. The weaker classes, like the rogue and cleric, leveled up faster. The wizard, who became very overpowered very quickly, leveled up very slowly.
Oh, and the more raw talent your character had for their chosen class—as determined by their ability scores—the quicker they leveled up. Experience used to be a really personal thing. And because it was divvied up evenly amongst the participants—even the hired help—the bigger your party, the smaller your share of the XP. And if you ran off on your own and just handled s$&%, you didn’t have to split the XP with anyone.
I know some of you are having f$&%ing aneurisms just reading this. Different characters at different levels? That’s unfair! Classes that level up slower? That’s just punishing people for their class choice. Because that’s where we’re at. Any differentiation between players is unfair punishment. At least, that’s where we’re at in the futuristic world of 2021 when people can’t tell petty jealous resentment from fairness anymore.
I’m not going to address that petty, childish, kindergarten bulls$&%. Nor am I going to address all the complicated bookkeeping involved in giving different people different numbers. Because I know using basic arithmetic on a column of numbers it takes seconds to record counts as complicated bookkeeping in 2021. And even tracking hit points is too much for some people.
But I will address some counterpoints to the idea of individual XP that are actually worth addressing.
See, unless you’re really crappy at reading the subtext, you might have noticed some subtle clues in the tone of my writing that suggest that I maybe think that individual XP awards are kind of a good idea. Or at least, that there’s nothing wrong with the idea. And that I’m also okay with split parties. But there are a few common counterarguments that actually need addressing. One has to do with game balance and another has to do with incentivizing the wrong kind of gameplay.
First, the second. The argument goes like this. If PCs can not only earn experience on their own but actually earn proportionally more experience on their own, there’s an incentive for party members to split up and take on problems on their own. And that is, to some extent, totally true. Moreover, players might even want to play entire sessions or adventures alone. And that’s also somewhat true. You know how I know these things are true? Because they used to happen. If a character had a thing to take care of on their own or just needed to catch up to the group because they were lagging behind a few levels, they’d ask the GM to run them through a solo game. Or they’d make a solo delve into whatever dungeon the party was currently plundering. This was the era of the sprawling dungeon complex whose depths the players would plumb throughout many expeditions and many sessions.
But you know what? That s$&% was fun. There’s nothing inherently bad about either of those things. It ain’t bad for PCs to break from the herd once in a while to handle a specialized problem on their own. It ain’t bad for individual PCs to get some spotlight time showing off their unique skills and for everyone else to wait their turn for a little while. And certain classes, like the ranger and the rogue, used to really shine here. They were good at splitting away from the party, scouting ahead, blazing a trail, and clearing minor obstacles. And assassins could actually assassin once in a while in those days.
Of course, the rogues and rangers and assassins and everyone else? They couldn’t do that s$&% all the time. No one could. Because most of the challenges in the party’s way required a party’s worth of skills, talents, and resources to deal with. That’s why adventurers travel in packs to begin with. And there were risks to it besides. Sometimes the loner would end up in hot water. They’d get spotted or miss their backstab and then they’d have to run screaming back to the party who’d hear them coming and lay in for a fight.
The “never split the party” mantra that’s become a big, hilarious in-joke these days? Yeah, it wasn’t as big a deal back in the day. Once upon a time, it was just a reminder that splitting the party was a high-risk proposition. After all, the party’s skills, resources, hit points, and abilities were divided, but the encounters remained the same.
That’s why we never worried much that individual XP awards incentivized the wrong kind of gameplay. The argument is basically that D&D’s a team sport. The party’s supposed to work together. If lone wolves earn proportionally more XP than team players, the game’s encouraging the players to play wrong. But, as noted, the lone wolf could—and often did—end up facing something alone that ought not to be faced alone. And if they got hurt or killed, there was no one around to save their pelt. The risk of being a lone wolf hasn’t changed, but the payoff has. There is none. So, you never split the party.
The thing is, while they were an occasional pain in the a$&, split parties actually added some depth to the gameplay. When the party was investigating something, for instance, in a reasonably safe location like a town, the talkers would go off and question people while the bullies found some heads to crack for information and the thinkers poked and prodded at the scenes of the crimes to find clues. And if you—the GM—could run the split party efficiently—which ain’t that hard—you could cover the same three scenes simultaneously in the same amount of time as it’d take you to cover them sequentially with the whole party there for each.
Actually, they’d usually go quicker. See, with the party split, the encounters didn’t need to provide something for everyone to do. Everyone didn’t have to be a talker because only the talkers would show up for the talky scenes. And the encounters themselves ran faster because there were fewer participants in each.
The spotlight time—if you care about such—was also the same. Instead of the non-talkers hanging back and not talking in the talking scene, they’d just hang back and wait for the cutaway to their bully scene or investigation scene or whatever.
Point is, splitting up was a choice. A strategy. Sometimes, it was a good one. And sometimes, the party had the right skills to take advantage of a split party. But it was a risky choice. Usually, risky enough that it wasn’t worth the payoff. But, when it was a strategically reasonable choice, the high payoff nudged players to consider spreading themselves out.
And giving the players a choice adds more depth to the game than not giving them a choice. These days, splitting the party just isn’t a choice.
A lot of subtle s$&% has actually changed about the game as parties have been increasingly resistant to ever dividing their numbers and resources. Because every character has to be able to participate equally in every encounter, for example, the skill list has been distilled and pared down and the difference between being good at something and being bad at it has been minimized. Penalties for things like encumbrance, failed actions, vision and light, armor, and all that s$&% all had to get swept aside. Take stealth, for example. These days, no one knows how to run a stealth encounter because every party has at least one dude or dudette with an entire kitchen showroom strapped to their body, clanking away and ruining the fun. And they sure as hell won’t back more than one move action away and just let the sneak work.
Meanwhile, GMs bend themselves to breaking trying to get their players to participate in encounters they aren’t good at and usually don’t want to be involved in. Do you have any idea how many f$&%ing e-mails I get from GMs asking me how to make their quiet players play social interaction encounters and s$&% like that? They can find all the faults in the system that make it impossible for every character to contribute to every negotiation, but they never consider that maybe there’s a reason why those players chose barbarians over bards for their characters.
Ultimately, like every GMing discussion, the whole “split party” thing always comes down to a false dilemma. Like, if there’s a reward for a certain behavior, then that’s all the players will ever do. All the time. You can’t let splitting up be the right answer once in a damned while because then splitting up will always be the only thing that happens. Well, that ain’t how reality works. That’s just arguments on the internet.
Personally, I’m all for individual awards for individual contributions to the adventure. And if a player manages to handle a dangerous threat or obstacle alone—without the party there to cover their a$&—then they deserve something extra. The old method of giving them five times the XP does seem a bit extreme, but that’s not the only option. For example, you might decide an encounter is worth a certain amount of XP, and each and every participant in that encounter gets that same amount of XP. It’s not divided. That’s just how much XP the encounter’s worth to any and all participants individually. But, the amount of XP’s reduced proportionally based on the number of participants. It sounds complicated when I explain it in words, but, trust me, it’s a lot easier to implement than it sounds. After all, it’s basically how I handle companion characters.
And sure, there’s this issue of game balance. The idea that having PCs of different levels in the same party will f$&% up the game balance. Well, that’s not actually an issue. D&D isn’t that precisely balanced. It claims it is. But it ain’t. And the disparity between the PCs usually doesn’t end up being that big in any case. Besides, the game could do with a little imbalance. Imbalance is good for a game. That’s the secret to Blizzard’s success. They built some of the most popular video game franchises in the history of ever because they understood better than anyone the value of imperfect balance. But that’s another story.
I’d like to see “splitting the party” come back to the game. Not as something the players do all the time, but just as a viable strategy. Something the players could do. One more string for their bows. A high-risk, high-reward strategy that was sometimes the right answer and sometimes just got PCs killed. A lot of interesting gameplay scenarios grew out of that. D&D and Pathfinder have become very rote “kick in the door and kill or be killed” affairs. When’s the last time your players did even something as simple as scouting the enemy and then splitting up to attack from two different directions?
In other words: yes, Daniel, if a PC works alone, give them a little pile of XP that they don’t have to share with the others.
Some nameless GM who can’t follow directions asks…
My players would rather work for NPC patrons or factions than drive the campaign themselves. They want me to just hand them missions and quests. And when they’re confronted with impactful choices, they use their spells and abilities to contact their superiors and find out how to proceed. It’s the logical thing to do, but it lets them avoid making difficult decisions. How can I give them more agency without just cutting off their communication with their bosses completely?
It’s hard, oh nameless wonder, when your players use their agency to play the game they want to play instead of the game you think they should play. It sucks when the players have fun wrong. That’s why the only thing you can do is sabotage their preferred style of play and force them to do things your way. For agency.
Do you hear what I’m saying? Is my sarcasm obscuring my point? I mean, considering you can’t understand simple instructions like “tell me what to call you explicitly,” I’m probably being too subtle for you. So, let me spell it out.
When I was talking to Daniel above—notice how I called him Daniel because of the instructions he followed—I told Daniel above that some GMs try to force their players to engage with certain game situations even when they don’t want to. And that’s what you’re doing here. Have you considered that maybe—just maybe—your players are playing exactly the way they want to? Maybe they don’t want to play Telltale Games Presents Dungeons & Drama and make giant, impactful choices? Maybe they just want to take on a mission and do their best to win? That’s why, when you take away their missions and tell them to make their own damned fun or when you shove an impactful choice in their faces, they just sit and sulk until Pliskin calls them back. And why breaking their Codec won’t fix anything.
Look, it’s possible your players think they’re playing smart. It’s possible they’re optimizing the fun out of the game. It’s possible they really do feel like they’re not allowed to make choices because they’re punch-clock minions. It’s possible they think they’re supposed to call their boss every ten minutes and ask him what to do next. I doubt it. I really do. But it is possible. If you want to test them, try sending them on a mission where they know they’ll be out of communication range with HQ. Like, they’re going into an anti-magic zone or that the top brass is worried about magical scrying or a mole or something. Make it part of the briefing that they’ve got to operate on their own initiative. Then, throw them one tricky choice and see how they react. If they panic, end up paralyzed, or spend six hours debating their course of action in committee, you have your answer. They don’t want that s$&%. If they handle the situation reasonably well, though, ask them at the end of the session—in a very general way—what they thought of the game that night. Don’t ask about the specific situation or anything like that. Just see what kind of reviews they give the game that night. If they don’t specifically mention the part where they had to think for themselves and describe it as a refreshing change of pace, if they’re just so-so about the game in general, you’re trying to fix something that ain’t broken.
Honestly, though, I wouldn’t bother with that s$&% if I were you. Because this is a classic GMing trap you’ve fallen into. GMs have these personal ideas about how RPGs should be played and what makes them fun. And they cannot wrap their f$&%ing heads around it when the players play differently or don’t have that kind of fun. So they’re convinced they’re doing something wrong. And crappy online GMs giving s$&% advice just make the situation worse.
The truth is, the things most GMs—especially online, advice-giving GMs who aren’t me—don’t understand is that the things they think are fun aren’t the things most players find fun. That’s why they’re GMs and not players. And why the players are players, not GMs. GMing and playing are different. They draw different kinds of people. For every group of players, for example, that loves the idea of narrative agency and creating world details for their own sakes, they’re ten groups of players who hate that s$&%. Who don’t want to create a f$&%ing world. They just want to play in one. That’s what the GM’s for.
I bet your players are having a great time being soldiers for the resistance and cracking heads and winning missions and s$&% like that. And the impactful choices you see as defining moments are just speedbumps in their fun. They probably don’t want to burn resources on sending spells and animal messengers every mission trying to find out whether they should capture the turncoat or just kill him outright. They’d probably be even happier if they got clear instructions from the get-go and could just get on with the execution challenge.
Ironically, what you’re proposing is actually taking away the players’ agency. The characters have tools and skills. The players are using them to resolve problems the way they think is best. If they wanted to strike off on their own and make their own calls, they could. And they would. The players are making choices. They’re choosing to follow orders and get further instructions.
Now, having said all that, there is another possibility. And I ain’t saying this as a joke or dig at you. This is a serious thing to consider. It’s possible you’re not presenting the choices and options the right way. It’s possible the players actually do want to blaze their own trails but something about how you’re presenting the game makes them feel like they can’t. Or shouldn’t. And lots of GMs struggle with that. It’s actually not easy to present meaningful, impactful choices and to create an open-ended world. It takes more than just giving the players a blank canvas or a list of choices, then waiting for the players to give their answer. That’s because most people—not most players, most human beings—don’t handle too much open-endedness well. There’s a reason why blank page syndrome is real. There’s ways to frame choices and options that make them easier for people to digest. But that’s a big issue and there’s so many ways to get it wrong that I can’t possibly diagnose the problem and advise you based on this e-mail.
Maybe, I need to do a full-length article about this topic. I don’t know. Any dancers in the crowd tonight?
But my gut tells me that’s not the issue. I really think you’re trying to fix a problem that doesn’t exist. I think your players are perfectly happy with the game you’re running and don’t want the game you wish you were running. So, you’ve got to decide whether you can be happy running your current game and letting the players have their fun. And if you can’t be, then you have to sit down with your players like f$&%ing adults and tell them you don’t like the way the game’s going. Tell them what you don’t like about it and see what they say. And if you all can’t find common ground, maybe you need new players.
Hope that helps. Whoever the f$&% you are.
Kevin asks…
I want my players to immerse themselves in the game’s world and leave their mark on it. So, sometimes, I give them the chance to tell me what they find during play rather than inventing the world for them. But they have this irritating tendency to say things like, “we found a fountain that heals the whole party and cures all our ailments and coats our weapons in diamonds.” Or “hidden behind the painting, I find the amazing axe of amazingness that kills foes in one hit and turns straw into gold.” How can I find a middle…
And I’ve heard enough. Did you read what I said to whoever the f$&% I was talking to above? If not, go read it now. And then feel free to withdraw your question.
See what I mean, Daniel? I get a crap-ton of these “my players are doing it wrong, how do I make them do it right and play the way I want them to” e-mails.
Everything I said above applies. Especially the part about how GMs assume that, because world-creation is so much damned fun, everyone wants to do it. But there’s another issue here. And that issue can be summed up thusly:
Some people can’t be trusted with the power of the game master.
Most people make s$&% choices. Terrible, awful, short-sighted, selfish choices. Not because they’re terrible, awful, short-sighted, selfish people, mind you, though some are. No, it’s just because most people don’t know any better. They’re doing the best they can, they’re just not very good.
Consider this: most low wealth or low-income people who win massive lottery prizes end up deeply depressed. And they usually end up poor again after just a couple of years. Even most middle-class people end up depressed after they win the lottery, though they usually end up holding on to the money a little better. Ironically, wealthy people who have huge windfalls usually turn out the happiest of all. And they usually end up managing the money better too.
Good game designers don’t give the players what they want. They know that just leads to a crappy gameplay experience. Good game designers don’t just let the players win. They impose challenges and limits and constraints. They make the players earn their victories. And a good GM is, in part, a good game designer. Because role-playing games aren’t just collaborative storytelling experiences or creativity exercises. They’re also games. It’s right there in the name.
Your players aren’t game designers, though. They’re not GMs. They probably don’t want the power of game design. And when they get it, they’re going to do crappy, stupid, unsatisfying things with it. Power that’s given, rather than earned or acquired, comes without discipline. And without discipline, power’s not a great thing to have.
Moreover, when undisciplined people suddenly have total freedom, the first thing they do is test the limits of that freedom. They want to see how much they can get away with. That’s just how people are. If you give a person the ability to create whatever they want out of thin air, the first thing most people will do—sadly—is to try to create something they know you’d expressly forbid. Just to see where the walls are. And if they don’t run into a wall the first time they should, they’re just going to keep looking for the walls.
You have to understand this s$&%. You have to understand human nature. It’s just one of the things that go along with being a good game designer and a good GM. It’s part of the discipline. And you also have to understand—and accept—that not everyone wants to be a GM. And not everyone can be good at it.
As for your game? Well, I hope your players have taught you something. Don’t trust them with the power of creation. It’s your world. You’re the GM. Stop dumping your responsibility on people who never signed up for the job.
Sneak Dog asks…
After playing D&D and other TTRPGs at a variety of levels, I realized I have no idea what experience levels actually mean in the setting. Is a 5th level fighter in D&D an expert swordsman or a town guard? Is a 16th level barbarian a demigod capable of wrestling a river to clean out a massive stable? Should the system define this stuff or is it up to the GM?
Sneak Dog? Didn’t you just drop a single hinting that you were going to hang up your GM screen for good? Or am I thinking of someone else?
I feel you. I really do. But I have no answer for you either. Because D&D has simply stopped giving a f$&% about what experience levels mean in the setting. Hell, it’s stopped caring what most things mean in the setting. But that’s a whole other rant.
It’s weird going back to D&D 3.5—which I recently did—and rediscovering how much firm setting stuff was built into the mechanics. Specifically as pertains to just how powerful player-characters were supposed to be and how common members of different classes were at different levels in different populations. Not in terms of raw numbers, mind you, but in terms of the likelihood of stumbling over a double-digit level wizard, say, in a metropolis.
And then there’s this solid gold table from page 31 of the Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Dungeon Master’s Guide. Just check out that “who could do it” column. Tell me that s$&% ain’t great.
But we’re not talking about third edition here, are we? We’re talking about 5E. How powerful is a 5th level fighter or a 16th level barbarian in the world? Who knows? Who even knows how powerful a 1st level character is? How rare they are? Are 1st level PCs exceptional heroes or common as dirt? How many people in the world even have class levels? Is every town guard and sellsword a fighter? Is every hunter a ranger? Who the hell knows?
The funny thing, by the way, is that lots of people speak categorically about this s$&%. Like, some people will state like it’s a clear f$&%ing fact that the PCs are special, exceptional heroes. But other people will point out they’re basically apprentices who’ve never done anything worth doing. And both sides of the fight will cite all sorts of crap from the game’s books. This just goes to show how the game has no f$%&ing clue.
You can’t even establish a baseline level of power for a newly-minted PC. Let alone extend that logic to 5th level or 16th level or whatever. And then translate that into something about the game’s setting.
On top of that, though, the game’s balance system makes all of this even weirder. You never want the PCs fighting anything that’s too weak for them, right? Or too strong. That just won’t do. So, while there are a few high-level things that feel like they should be high-level things—like elder dragons and the tarrasques and Demogorgons—there’s also a lot of high-level stuff that doesn’t actually seem high-level. If the PCs can advance to 15th level, after all, why can’t goblins? Or orcs, despite their savage evil? It’s easy to create any creature at any level. And lots of GMs and adventure writers do just that.
Why’s that an issue? Well, pretend you’re running an adventure wherein the PCs are finally infiltrating the Dread Citadel of the Evil Overlord. They’re 15th level, say. The Evil Overlord being an Evil Overlord, he’s got a lot of perfectly normal guards in his Citadel. Stormtroopers. Centurions. Whatever. I mean, when you infiltrate Dread Citadels belonging to Evil Overlords, you expect to cut a bloody swath through a lot of stormtroopers, right?
As a GM, what level of challenge are you going to make those stormtroopers? As a rule, you’ve got to provide a reasonable challenge for 15th level heroes. Very few GMs have the conejos—you heard me—to let their PCs slaughter their way through waves of 1st level soldiers for a few hours. Even though that’d be f$&%ing awesome. So, instead, you end up with this weird situation where perfectly normal, enlisted grunts and gruntildas—the proper feminine form of grunt, by the way—have roughly the same skill and training as a hero with double-digit levels.
D&D’s 5th Edition goes to great lengths to downplay the idea that experience level means anything in the world at all. GMs are instructed to just build mechanically balanced challenges however they have to. Sure, there’s some lip service to tiers of play and some published modules handle it better than others. But, for the most part, the scrupulous balance between hero and challenge combined with the smoothing of the advancement curve has brought us to the point where level’s just a number that determines how many hit points everyone’s got. It’s got nothing to do with anything in the world.
Combine that with the fact that very low-level characters can already do amazing things and trivialize most non-combat challenges, and you’ve got a situation where the PCs basically start out as junior demigods, but so does everyone else in the world.
And I can’t help you fix that. The game’s system has to give you some kind of baseline to work with. It’s got to establish how the mechanics translate into the reality of the setting. As a GM, you can always redefine that s$&%, but you need a starting point.
It’s like this. In D&D 3.5, I know I can stock the Dread Fortress with hundreds of stormtroopers with 16 fighter levels apiece if I want to. The game gives me the option. But there’s a lot of subtext in the game telling me I probably shouldn’t. It’s not really stated outright. But it’s there. Because the game takes the time to establish what levels mean and how common PC classes are—and should be—in the world. I’ve got a baseline to follow or break away from. But in D&D 5E, you’re just on your own. And nothing you do is ever going to feel right because the game’s got no feel of its own.
Sorry.
One more point for Kevin. Letting your players tell you what they find is like being a novelist and leaving blank lines every couple of pages in your book. It’s not likely to create a better, more consistent, transporting experience. You just create madlibs.
Angry, not sure if it’s just me but I can’t see the link to the 3.5 page. I am very interested to hear how common levelled characters are in the Angryverse. Do you just base this on the system you’re running?
Agreed. Plus: players don’t want to write the game anyway. They want to play in a coherent world, and they want the GM to write and maintain that world.
Those players who do want to create a world should become GMs and GM-helpers, not be encouraged to insert their stuff into the game.
That first line reminds me of the GM’s burden. If we look at “the intended play”, the GM runs a premade adventure and the players follow it. You then have a slider of creativity where the players and the GM add more homebrew and adjust things to their liking. But the baseline says that the players do what the adventure says they do.
On the nameless GM. I would say the easiest way to resolve this is to just straight up ask your players “Why did you contact your boss at those encounters?” This isn’t some “I like game or don’t like game” question. So I would assume you would get a relatively straightforward answer, and from there you’d either hear that everyone likes or maybe someone doesn’t like it.
There’s this underlying implication that this option was presented at all. Did the GM offer a Communication Device? Did the quest giver go “BTW if stuff goes bad give me a call.” Is the advice always solid and reliable or does it falter sometimes? Are they asking for advice about moral questions or technical implementations of solutions? Heck, is the BOSS okay with being called every 5 minutes for life advice?
There’s a big gap between making sure your morally gray boss is okay with hostages dying as collateral and making sure the bridge is the right color pink for the festival.
And making it less reliable encourages the players to employ salt and common sense. Or just salt. I’ve had players yell at me for having the audacity of giving my NPCs imperfect knowledge and giving bad advice despite otherwise being a LG Paladin NPC.
That advice about ‘never splitting the party’ is the death of drama.
Last week one of the party (a lady pirate) went off on what she thought was a milk-run to shadow a suspect.
To her absolute delight and horror she found herself in a mortal combat against a deadly cultist. Which she barely won with 3 hps left.
And she also discovered a whole part of the enemy plan which no other party ever found before (this is an adventure I have run in parallel for three groups).
All of which would have been lost if the party had slavishly kept together.
Thanks to this very timely article from Angry I mean to reward the character with XP that matches the peril they endured – and also make it obvious WHY I’m rewarding the character.
Hm, the party splitting thing seems to answer my question of “why the fck do Fighters only have 4 skill points (Pathfinder 1e), they’re useless outside of combat”. With the modern approach of “everyone go together even if it’s just one guy doing the work”, it’s just boring, hell, even disappointing when you feel like you can’t contribute.
I like how the idea of individual XP makes players in these scenarios seek out what they’re good at. It stops that dead time. I’d say it can get a bit complicated, but if you’re not willing to face complication as a GM, then you shouldn’t be GMing.
In reference to the question asked by the nameless individual, I think there’s a tendency to assume that players would have more fun driving the action themselves, if only they realized they were allowed to. It’s easy to think that your players are trapped in “video game logic” and are waiting for a quest marker simply because they’re afraid to mess up your plot plans, or because they are afraid you’ll punish them for choosing something you hadn’t prepped for. I have had that thought myself, but any time I’ve tested it as you’ve suggested here, I’ve found exactly what you’ve claimed – that they just prefer having 2 or 3 clear paths forward to choose from. (And that goes for multiple groups I’ve run for) Personally, I was never driven by wanting to run the more player-driven game. I thought that sounded very challenging and risky. I just thought it would be more fun for the players. (until I realized that wasn’t what they “really wanted,” after all)
In reference to Sneak Dog’s question, (or more specifically, your answer to it) this is just one more reason I can’t wait for the Angry RPG. Now that’s something worth dancing for! 🙂
It’s not just a matter of execution, but of personality too. Some people just don’t want to make the calls.
To add to the “asking players to create” bit: Angry doesn’t even begin to describe how much some at the table didn’t sign up for this. I can come up with something cool and dramatic, that’s why I usually run the game, and if I’m not, that means that for now I’m sick of it.
I don’t know if that’s universal, but for me GM mindset and player mindset are really different and the distinction is sacred. That’s why I’m usually annoyed at stuff like “well nobody should abuse the game for power, players should think about balance themselves” please, I think about balance if I’m designing something, at the table I think how to survive and succeed at any price. Everything is a tool or a threat, or both, I don’t have space in my brain for what’s best for the drama, and I really don’t want to have it. I play to unwind, and just considering the idea of the situation is painful.
I agree. This is why I don’t like the “narrative-based” games where the players are half GMs themselves. It takes me 100% out of the role-playing when I’m asked to create part of the world or NPCs. I like my GM and player roles clearly separated. I actually have made “bad” decisions for my character based on role-playing the character, but it’s still based on the character’s mindset, not a story/world creation mindset. (As an example, last week in a friend’s game I attacked an NPC that I knew was almost certainly going to KO me or kill me, b/c he had a dear friend of my character’s hostage, and my character is a hot head. I did survive, but he wiped the floor with me)
5e does a terrible job of the Tiers of Play thing. This is sad, because one of my favorite things about 5e, bounded accuracy, plays very nice with a campaign setting that has more definite tiers like that. CR <1 monsters shouldn't become obsolete, and low-tier bosses shouldn't be demoted to corridor-prowling minions at high levels. I used to do this, and I hated it…
And so I stopped.
It improved my games 10,000%. Beholders didn't stop being bosses. They just started having more minions, and showing up at the end of longer, gnarlier dungeons. Players became hard-pressed to find a NPC who could even cast 6th-level spells, let alone one who wasn't booked up for the better part of a month. And the local farmsteads didn't ever stop being raided by goblins.
CR is the best we have to go on. If one has access to Mordenkainen's, things become a little more clear. Line infantry are probably CR 1/8 to 1/2. Scouts and skirmishers are in the 1/2-1 range. CR 3 NPCs are elites. CR 5 are celebrities. CR 9-12 represent the peak of mortal power, basically the equivalent of a 20th-level PC. Past that you're getting into greater fiend territory, and the lore on most of that stuff doesn't make sense for baddies that are going to be attacking in swarms.
I can't speak for everyone, but my main table (15-17 currently), likes to feel powerful. But I was also surprised and delighted by how much CR 1/2 hobgoblins could still make them sweat when deployed in sufficient numbers and with favorable conditions. And by "sufficient numbers" I mean both at a time and before the next long rest. Yeah, the wizard can turn off of mob of skeletons with one fireball, but now they're down a fireball, and that death tyrant they're hunting has so, so, many more skeletons to throw at them.
tl;dr: my solution to high-level PCs turned out to be "more orcs", not "no orcs". And not "orcs, but CR 5".
How much of an effect do you find that has had on the length of time combat encounters take? I’ve almost always turned down the idea of large swarms of minions for fear of combats becoming too long. (Almost everyone I’ve played with feels like combat in a rules-heavy RPG drags too much)
Again, I can’t speak for everyone, but my combats were already taking too long (6 players + VoIP = kill me). My turns are actually shorter now that I’m not rolling buckets of dice or mostly running monsters with auras and spellcaster levels and complex attack routines (which is a lot of the high-CR bestiary). I actually stumbled into this due to how the action economy sort of breaks down when you have more than 3-4 players. I HAD to start shoveling on minions just to give my bosses any amount staying power. Naturally, I stuck to monsters with simple attack routines. And I don’t remember why, but at some point I started building rooms like that, only without the bosses.
To be clear, my basic enemies still only appear in groups of 8-12 max. No more than a dozen skeletons, same as 3rd level. If the narrative calls for more than that, they come in waves. Except now the dungeons are bigger. More rooms with 2d6 skeletons in them. I think my zen moment was when I noticed my players actually start conserving their spell slots. Now they think they’ve gotten one over on me when they secure an exit that will take them to a safe place to rest. I don’t think they’ve figured out yet that I build my dungeons intending for them to grind it out, or even gain levels. My newest table actually balked when I threw a seventh encounter at them. They thought it was illegal. I suggested that they run away and call it day. They were like, “Wait, we can do that?”
I don’t even budget anymore. I stock rooms and dungeons based on what I think makes sense in the narrative. In my experience, CR tells you nothing about a monster’s actual combat performance (not reliably, anyway). If it has a +4 to hit, you will get hits. If there are enough of them, they will survive long enough to take a turn. What CR DOES tell you pretty reliably is when, lore-wise, having a thing’s head over your fireplace will impress any ladies who come over for tea.
oof, six players!
I guess there’s no scope to break the game into (say) two parallel tracks of three PCs each?
Each group plays the same scenario, and then you change the mix of each 3-PC group for the next scenario?
Eh, I make it work. While I did have to get draconian about some things (my players must know what a spell or class feature does before their characters can use it), the worst things about it aren’t even their fault. They’re Discord or Roll20 or the aforementioned (IMO broken) action economy.
That said, every game I’ve started since has had a hard 5-player limit and a soft 4-player limit. That years-long, 6-player game is for all of my closest friends, where the goblin slaughter is more of a pretext to hang out than it is the other way around.
But it’s funny that you mentioned splitting the party, because that also started happening more when I stopped doing linear gauntlet sprint dungeons and shifted to marathon hub/mega-dungeons. When they know that they can double back, when they know that they won’t necessarily need all hands on deck going nova, when they know that the dungeon recovers monsters over days or weeks (if it recovers them at all) it’s like 50/50 whether they take both forks when they hit a T.
TBH, I also find that gratifying because I’m lucky enough to have players who are willing to just sit there and listen to a story about whatever hot stunts their friends are doing. Not every DM is quite so lucky.
Thank you for taking the time to write that. Very interesting to hear about another GM’s game!
Good perception, and well explicated.
Larger groups of monsters make PCs feel like badasses, and allow them to use all of their ‘best vs multiple-opponents’ feats.
There is an increase in combat overhead, but you can use tricks to reduce this. For instance: instead of attacking with 40 orcs, attack with 10 monsters each of which repesents 4 orcs.
If a single orc has X hps and a single attack then the 4 orc group has a single attack of +0/2/3/4 to hit and +0/2/3/4 damage, depending on how many orcs (1,2,3,4) are left in that group.